#89960 - 09/01/06 04:00 AM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: Mandy]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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bevin said:
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Herod the Great died in 4 BC
How do we know?
Well, Herod the Great passed away when he was 70 years old, and in the 34th year of his reign. He became king of Judea in 37 BC. If my math is anything near correct, that would bring us to about 4 BC.
Before you ask me how do I know all this, please let me appeal to you to spend a few hours doing your own research at a good university library.
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and therefore Jesus was born either in that same year or a year or so before it, if Matthew 2:1,19 is correct.
Oh, where does Matthew say how old Jesus was when they moved from Egypt to Israel? He could have been anything from 0 to 12 years old?
I think it's safe to assume that Joseph did not wait 12 years from the time he was told Herod was dead to the time when he moved back to Israel. And besides, the chronology does not depend on when Jesus came back to Israel. All we need to know at this point in our discussion about chronology is that Jesus was born while Herod the Great was alive, and that Herod died in 4 BC.
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Luke 3's dating shows that Jesus began his public ministry about 27 AD.
How?
Please work out the math yourself based on the information we are given in Luke 3. Study the Sabbath school quarterly for August 13 to the 15th, 2006. I have about 10 non-SDA study Bibles, as well as Bible dictionaries, that also give 27 AD for the time of his baptism. I assume that you have access to these sources.
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We know that Jesus' public ministry lasted about 3 1/2 years, which brings us to about 31 AD.
How?
Count the number of passovers in the Gospels, to start with. You will find there is general agreement among scholars that Jesus' public ministry lasted approximately 3 1/2 years, from about 27 to 30 or 31 AD. If you have more questions about this and similar matters, I would ask you to please do your own research. If you are convinced that you know better than this, and you believe you can prove it, I suggest you write a book about it.
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Adding 3 or so years to 31 AD brings us to about 34 AD, which was the end of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9.
It is? Dan 9:26 says the city will be destroyed, 9:27 the abomination of desolation is set up on a wing of the temple. When in 27-34AD did these happen?
You are mistaken to think that everything mentioned in Daniel 9: 24 to 27 had to happen before 34 AD. Remember that the New Testament helps explain the OT. Study Jesus' own words about the abomination of desolation as well as about the destruction of the city. Jesus' words show that these things had not happened yet at the time Jesus still walked the earth.
We also know from history when these things did happen, just as the prophet Daniel had been inspired by God to predict they would. I'd like to suggest that you do some reading in history as well as in the writings of a great woman writer named Ellen White. I have read and enjoyed most of the world's great women writers, such as Jane Austen, George Eliot, Toni Morrison, etc., but none of them can hold a candle to Ellen White. She wrote far more than any of them put together, and her writings have also been translated into more languages than those of any other woman in history.
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Praise God!
I agree. But one should not mistake the love of God with inability to see the uncertainties and issues with evidence. Saying something is sure or certain when it is not does not bring glory to God.
I'm well aware of "the uncertainties and issues with the evidence" that you speak of. Those were things I was aware of and dealt with as far back as the 1970s, at which time my study of these things made me decide to leave an atheistic organization and become a Christian. I'm sincerely saddened by the fact that you have evidently not grown beyond what appear to me, in all honesty and with due respect, to be something similar to, if not actually, sophomore kinds of doubts.
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Christianity is a lot more about relationships and a lot less about flawed "proofs" than traditional SDA'ism recognizes.
/Bevin
As stated before, without the doctrinal truths of the Bible, you wouldn't even have Christianity. Relationships are fine and even necessary, of course, but if there wasn't a lot more to it than that, why did God (I still believe that God did and would like to know if you also believe that God did) have Paul and Peter and James and John and Jude write their wonderful letters?
Edited by John317 (09/01/06 04:12 AM)
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#89961 - 09/01/06 05:03 AM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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Aliensanctuary said:
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Christianity is much more about how we deal with people than it is about history and science. When I read the Bible and it teaches me about sin and human nature and integrity and honesty and love, these are all things that I can experience for myself in the real world. When it talks about prayer and meditation, these are also things I can experience in the real world. This is the real core - and the real attraction - of Christianity.
This is really good. Of only minor importance is whether we can correctly interpret strange symbols or time periods. If we could see what nations or empires exist a thousand years from now we might be quite surprised.
Yes, if human governments exist a thousand years from now, we should certainly be surprised indeed. I hope and believe that the only government existing a thousand years from now will be God's government, with Christ as its King and we its happy subjects. I'm amazed that Adventists now speak of time and this sinful world continuing for a thousand more years. But perhaps I should not be amazed or surprised at all.
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What we need most is not the absolute "proof" of unprovable concepts or vague prophecies in the spiritual realm. Because we are so limited in our place in space and time, we can hardly prove anything with our limited senses and knowledge.
And, we hardly need to prove anything to anyone anyway except that we are followers of Jesus, demonstrated by our actions. Like Nicodemus, we may want to know the answers to our scientific or theoretical questions, but, that's not what we really need. All that we really need are New Hearts.
We may think we know the interpretation of beasts and times in prophecy, but that's not our ticket to the next world. Jesus told us in a number of ways what we need to do to obtain our ticket to the next life. Perhaps some gifted or sprit-filled person will be able to interpret symbols and times correctly when needed, but maybe we'll still be groping around in spiritual darkness until the End of Earth's Miserable History.
If we can trust anything in the Bible and follow its teachings in order to become better representatives of the Kingdom of God, then after we have fallen asleep, we will awaken into a life as the newest members of an alien civilization, farther from here than we might think.
There we will remain until the Earth once again pulses with the heartbeat of humanity, the beating of our own hearts once again throbbing in unison with the universe.
The prophecies in Daniel will be sealed until the Last Days. When the Last Days arrive we will know it, and then we will understand these symbols and mysterious time periods. Until then, we are likely only guessing.
We are in the last days now. Unless, that is, you do not believe Ellen White or the Bible itself. According to the Bible, we've been in "the last hour," etc., since the time of the Apostles. We are certainly in the last days, that is, we are living only a short time before the coming of Christ. The signs are all around us, but they are understood only by people studying the Bible and preparing to meet Christ. Please read Great Controversy, pages 483-491 and 563 to the end. We have been in the last days-- i.e., time of the end-- since the late 1790s. Christ could have, and actually would have, come back in the 1890s, except for failure on the part of God's SDA people to accept and practice the messages of the three angels. The reason Jesus still waits is the spiritually luke-warm condition of most Seventh-day Adventist people. We are not ready for Him to come back. Millions would be lost if Jesus were to return today. The conditions of the world is not what is important but rather what is happening in the SDA church is what's most important. When we are ready spiritually for Christ to come back, God will allow the prophecies concerning the mark of the beast and persecution to happen. But we are not yet ready for it, and that is the reason it does not happen. Obviously we need to spend more time in deep, personal study of the Bible and in prayer, and we need to become united in what we communicate with the world. Or else many more generations of SDAs, and thus non-SDAs, will go down into the grave waiting for Jesus to return.
Read a book called Why Jesus Waits.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#89962 - 09/02/06 03:50 PM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: Mandy]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10393
Loc: CA
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Quote:
bevin said:
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Jesus' words are enough proof for me. The Son of God said clearly that Moses wrote the books of Moses, contradicting a great many critics.
That says it all. For you "proof" is
your bible = a translation of
repeated copies of = a transmission of
Luke's book = an writing down of
Luke says he talked to people = someone's recollection of
Jesus said...
/Bevin
This song expresses what I firmly believe. It used to be sung often among Adventist young people but is seldom heard today:
Many are the doctrines in the world today,
Many are the theories of Salvation's way;
But there's only one guide that is safe and true,
Are you sure the Bible is guiding you?
Is it in the Bible, my brother?
Is it on its pages fair?
If it's there believe it,
If it's there receive it,
But be sure that you can find it there.
Some by vain philosophy and pride are led,
Caring not to follow what the Lord hath said,
God's divine commandments they no longer need,
Satisfied to follow some other creed.
There is only one guide that is safe and sure,
There is only one guide that will e'er ednurre;
'Tis the blessed Bible, study it with care;
God himself will answer, you'll find it there.
It is in the Bible, my brother,
It is on its pages fair;
It is there: believe it!
It is there: receive it!
I am sure that you can find it there.
Edited by John317 (09/02/06 04:07 PM)
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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