#89950 - 08/06/06 03:37 AM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: ]
|
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
|
Quote:
Daniel predicted the rise of the European nations after the collapse of Rome and predicted also that those nations would still be individual nations when Christ returned. If you include the rise and fall of Rome and then the rise of the western European nations, that is more than 2 thousand years. Please restudy the second chapter of Daniel.
Daniel did not name Rome
Daniel did not name the European countries, or even point in their direction, and it is purely interpretation that the feet of iron and clay refer to Europe - and without any reasonable substance at that. It could just as easily apply to the Middle/Far East.
Quote:
We know that Christ was born about 4 BC, and we know that he was baptized about 27 AD, and we know that he died about 31 AD.
Oh? How do we know?
/Bevin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#89951 - 08/06/06 03:37 AM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: mausman]
|
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
|
Quote:
I beleive one of the Dead Sea Scrolls contained both Genesis and Exodus but as a rule each scroll would have had only one book or a portion thereof. Among the Dead Sea Scrolls there were various which are not in our Old Testement.
What is the accepted dates for the Dead Sea Scrolls?
/Bevin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#89953 - 08/06/06 11:14 AM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: Mandy]
|
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10448
Loc: CA
|
Quote:
bevin said:
Quote:
Daniel predicted the rise of the European nations after the collapse of Rome and predicted also that those nations would still be individual nations when Christ returned. If you include the rise and fall of Rome and then the rise of the western European nations, that is more than 2 thousand years. Please restudy the second chapter of Daniel.
Quote:
Daniel did not name Rome
Daniel did not name the European countries, or even point in their direction, and it is purely interpretation that the feet of iron and clay refer to Europe - and without any reasonable substance at that. It could just as easily apply to the Middle/Far East.
For about a year I corresponded with an atheist about these matters and he said much the same thing you are saying. Naturally he denied the existence of Christ as well as the fulfilment of prophecy. Back in the 70s he and I belonged to the same Trotskyist organization, the Socialist Workers Party, so I was not a bit surprised to hear that kind of talk. But I must say that I'm surprised to hear it from people in the Adventist club.
You are right that Daniel did not NAME Rome. However, he described the Roman Empire in a way that cannot be mistaken for any other power. What did he say about the power that followed Greece? Read Daniel 2:40-45. I'd like to know what other nation or power besides Rome did what the Bible said the nation following Greece would do. Remember, it has to fulfil the specifications.
The legs of iron can only be the Roman Empire, for only it followed the Greek Empire and only it crushed all the other nations that existed before it. Daniel could not have described it better if he had lived in the second century AD, which is one reason many people say Daniel lived a lot later than 600 BC, especially in view of Daniel 11.
Permit me to offer a couple of "reasonable substances" for believing that the feet of iron and clay represent the European nations and not the Middle or Far East: (1) The fact that the feet are a continuation of the legs representing the Roman Empire shows that whatever nations the feet represent must have risen out of, or been part of, the Roman Empire. The Far East were never part of the Roman Empire, and the Middle East fail to fulfil other specifications described in the prophecy. Notice that Daniel 2: 41-43 relates the feet and toes to the fourth kingdom. 2) Except for the three Arian European peoples that were destroyed and disappeared from history-- the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths-- the kingdoms of Europe continue today, over 1,500 years later, largely as they were in the days of ancient Rome, which is exactly what Daniel 2:44 predicted would happen: that they would still exist and, despite attempts through intermarriage to unite them, they would also not be united at the time Christ returns.
Other reasons could be given except for the fact that I have to go to bed directly.
Quote:
We know that Christ was born about 4 BC, and we know that he was baptized about 27 AD, and we know that he died about 31 AD.
Oh? How do we know?
/Bevin
OK, here's how we know. I know you have heard this many times before and probably at one time you even taught it:
Herod the Great died in 4 BC, and therefore Jesus was born either in that same year or a year or so before it, if Matthew 2:1,19 is correct. Luke 3's dating shows that Jesus began his public ministry about 27 AD. We know that Jesus' public ministry lasted about 3 1/2 years, which brings us to about 31 AD. Adding 3 or so years to 31 AD brings us to about 34 AD, which was the end of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9. Praise God!
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#89955 - 08/06/06 02:42 PM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: ]
|
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
|
Quote:
Herod the Great died in 4 BC
How do we know?
Quote:
and therefore Jesus was born either in that same year or a year or so before it, if Matthew 2:1,19 is correct.
Oh, where does Matthew say how old Jesus was when they moved from Egypt to Israel? He could have been anything from 0 to 12 years old?
Quote:
Luke 3's dating shows that Jesus began his public ministry about 27 AD.
How?
Quote:
We know that Jesus' public ministry lasted about 3 1/2 years, which brings us to about 31 AD.
How?
Quote:
Adding 3 or so years to 31 AD brings us to about 34 AD, which was the end of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9.
It is? Dan 9:26 says the city will be destroyed, 9:27 the abomination of desolation is set up on a wing of the temple. When in 27-34AD did these happen?
Quote:
Praise God!
I agree. But one should not mistake the love of God with inability to see the uncertainties and issues with evidence. Saying something is sure or certain when it is not does not bring glory to God.
Christianity is a lot more about relationships and a lot less about flawed "proofs" than traditional SDA'ism recognizes.
/Bevin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#89956 - 08/06/06 02:52 PM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: ]
|
Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
|
Quote:
Jesus' words are enough proof for me. The Son of God said clearly that Moses wrote the books of Moses, contradicting a great many critics.
That says it all. For you "proof" is
your bible = a translation of
repeated copies of = a transmission of
Luke's book = an writing down of
Luke says he talked to people = someone's recollection of
Jesus said
And Jesus was not even directly addressing the question of "who wrote Exodus"! Because IF YOU ASKED JESUS He might well have told you the truth. The writing books and claiming someone else wrote them was an absolutely standard literary practise in the Middle East from about 500BC until after Jesus was dead.
You are searching for scientific-style proofs and truths, but are ignoring the origins of the material you are searching in.
Christianity is much more about how we deal with people than it is about history and science. When I read the Bible and it teaches me about sin and human nature and integrity and honesty and love, these are all things that I can experience for myself in the real world. When it talks about prayer and meditation, these are also things I can experience in the real world. This is the real core - and the real attraction - of Christianity.
To pretend to have "proof" of the origins of the world is simply to show how bad your concept of "proof" is.
/Bevin
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#89957 - 09/01/06 12:02 AM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: Mandy]
|
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10448
Loc: CA
|
Quote:
bevin said:
Quote:
Daniel predicted the rise of the European nations after the collapse of Rome and predicted also that those nations would still be individual nations when Christ returned. If you include the rise and fall of Rome and then the rise of the western European nations, that is more than 2 thousand years. Please restudy the second chapter of Daniel.
Daniel did not name Rome
Daniel did not name the European countries, or even point in their direction, and it is purely interpretation that the feet of iron and clay refer to Europe - and without any reasonable substance at that. It could just as easily apply to the Middle/Far East...
/Bevin
No, Daniel did not name Rome, and there are very good reasons he didn't name it. For one thing, if John had clearly identified Rome as an evil power, you may be sure that it would have been even more ruthless than it was in attempting to destroy various books of the Bible, such as Daniel and Revelation.
However, despite Daniel's not having named the Roman Empire, the New Testament leaves no doubt whatever that the fourth empire was Rome. Study Matthew 22:17; Luke 2:1; Luke 3:1; John 11:48; Acts 25:21; Matthew 24: 15 and Luke 21: 20,21. Jesus links the Roman Empire to Daniel. Compare Jesus words in the above verses to Daniel 9:27; 11: 31; 12:11.
Please refer to the Sabbath school quarterly for August 27 and 29, 2006, which discusses these very questions.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#89958 - 09/01/06 01:45 AM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: Mandy]
|
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10448
Loc: CA
|
Quote:
bevin said:
Quote:
Jesus' words are enough proof for me. The Son of God said clearly that Moses wrote the books of Moses, contradicting a great many critics.
That says it all. For you "proof" is
your bible = a translation of
repeated copies of = a transmission of
Luke's book = an writing down of
Luke says he talked to people = someone's recollection of
Jesus said
Yes, I am not ashamed at all to publicly confess my faith in the Bible as God's word and say that I trust it implicitly, realizing full well that I am out of step with the "post-modern world."
I've been studying the Bible, and particulary the New Testament, closely for about 30 years. I have about 20 editions of the Greek New Testament as well as about 55 different translations of the Bible in English and have been comparing all of these editions of the Greek New Testament word for word as well as comparing the Greek with the various translations in order to see which manuscript evidence they follow. I've long since come to the conclusion that the Bible and Jesus Christ are trustworthy. In all due respect, I believe without question that Jesus' word and the Bible's word is to be trusted far more than either yours or mine.
The weak proof that you speak of is not nearly as weak as you let on, although of course Satan would like people to think so.
On the subject you bring up here, the reader might want to check out a fairly recent book by Lee Strobel, The Case For Christ, in which the evidence for belief in Christ is presented.
Quote:
And Jesus was not even directly addressing the question of "who wrote Exodus"! Because IF YOU ASKED JESUS He might well have told you the truth.
Jesus always told the truth. He never said things merely because they were convenient, and he never taught anything that was not true. People did not have to ask Jesus in order for Him to tell the truth. The New Testament picture of Jesus is very clear on that. Besides, in addition to Jesus' testimony, the Holy Spirit inspired other writers of the Bible to say that Moses was the author of the first five books.
Quote:
The writing books and claiming someone else wrote them was an absolutely standard literary practise in the Middle East from about 500BC until after Jesus was dead.
Yes, that is true, but there is no evidence that this was the case with any of the books in the Hebrew Bible or in the Christian Greek scriptures. I believe the best evidence points to Peter as having written the two books included in the New Testament, and to Paul as the author of all 13 of the epistles. Etc.
Quote:
You are searching for scientific-style proofs and truths, but are ignoring the origins of the material you are searching in.
Not at all. Actually I am not really searching for "scientific style proofs," as you put it. For one thing I don't need it, and for another, no such proof is even available or possible. There is good evidence, however, and I look for evidence and seek to apply good reasoning, but my belief in God and in His written word does not rest on scientific proofs. Scientifically one cannot prove either God's existence or His non-existence. There is only evidence pointing to one or the other, just as there is evidence pointing to the truth of the Bible, but certainly not scientific proof. It's like a court of law where the weight of evidence, circumstantial evidence, etc., rather than scientific proof, usually determines the verdict. Faith in God and in the Bible, then, is not blind faith, but neither is it a faith that depends on scientific proofs.
Quote:
Christianity is much more about how we deal with people than it is about history and science. When I read the Bible and it teaches me about sin and human nature and integrity and honesty and love, these are all things that I can experience for myself in the real world. When it talks about prayer and meditation, these are also things I can experience in the real world. This is the real core - and the real attraction - of Christianity.
To pretend to have "proof" of the origins of the world is simply to show how bad your concept of "proof" is.
/Bevin
Now we are talking about how we gain meaning from the text and apply it to our lives, and that is really about your subjective opinion and mine. It is good to discuss but it is not the same as discussing the objective word of God and what it actually says. What I think you fail to consider is the fact that unless the word of God "is truth," as Jesus said in John 17: 17, then everything else you mention may be false and a lot of self-deception. You should remember that you can also practice prayer, meditation, and all the other things according to Buddhist, Islam, Hindi, texts as well. Why then do you choose to follow the Hebrew and Christian Bible on these matters, unless they speak the truth in a way that the other texts do not? In other words, I believe that a case can be made that if the doctrines and history in the Bible are false, then there is no reason to follow specifically and only what the Bible says about prayer, meditation, and sin, any more than one may follow what other so-called sacred texts say on these matters. One is left with only a subjective choice that is not necessarily any better-- or more true-- than an opposite choice. That's if you don't believe we have Jesus' actual words in the Bible because of all the copying and interviewing, etc.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#89959 - 09/01/06 02:09 AM
Re: Clifford Gets It Wrong - Again
[Re: ]
|
Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 498
Loc: Northern California
|
Quote:
Christianity is much more about how we deal with people than it is about history and science. When I read the Bible and it teaches me about sin and human nature and integrity and honesty and love, these are all things that I can experience for myself in the real world. When it talks about prayer and meditation, these are also things I can experience in the real world. This is the real core - and the real attraction - of Christianity.
This is really good. Of only minor importance is whether we can correctly interpret strange symbols or time periods. If we could see what nations or empires exist a thousand years from now we might be quite surprised.
What we need most is not the absolute "proof" of unprovable concepts or vague prophecies in the spiritual realm. Because we are so limited in our place in space and time, we can hardly prove anything with our limited senses and knowledge.
And, we hardly need to prove anything to anyone anyway except that we are followers of Jesus, demonstrated by our actions. Like Nicodemus, we may want to know the answers to our scientific or theoretical questions, but, that's not what we really need. All that we really need are New Hearts.
We may think we know the interpretation of beasts and times in prophecy, but that's not our ticket to the next world. Jesus told us in a number of ways what we need to do to obtain our ticket to the next life. Perhaps some gifted or sprit-filled person will be able to interpret symbols and times correctly when needed, but maybe we'll still be groping around in spiritual darkness until the End of Earth's Miserable History.
If we can trust anything in the Bible and follow its teachings in order to become better representatives of the Kingdom of God, then after we have fallen asleep, we will awaken into a life as the newest members of an alien civilization, farther from here than we might think.
There we will remain until the Earth once again pulses with the heartbeat of humanity, the beating of our own hearts once again throbbing in unison with the universe.
The prophecies in Daniel will be sealed until the Last Days. When the Last Days arrive we will know it, and then we will understand these symbols and mysterious time periods. Until then, we are likely only guessing.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
SEARCH OUR SITE
|
|
This full membership income helps pay for hosting, advertising, domain names, software support etc etc
|
|
|
41 registered (Bravus, bygjymbo, darlene, David-Kingsley, dgrimm60, Doug, eddie, fccool, forgie, Gladussee, Heather Cummings, Jerry D Thomas, John317, Kountzer, LifeHiscost, Liz, melvin mccarty, Nan, Neil D, Nightingale, olger, pkrause, rab, Raphael, Redwood, Robert, Sulla, Suzanne Sutton, Taylor, Vera, 11 invisible),
380
Guests and
94
Spiders online. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 1
|
|
|
Previous Topic
Index
