9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet.

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#9003 - 11/16/03 12:32 AM 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet.
Stan Jensen Carpe Diem!!! Registered: 09/15/06 Posts: 3692 Loc: 49.05° Lat- 122.3° Long	9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. Answer: Whenever humans have a role in the fulfillment of a prophecy, a conditional element is implicit with the prophecy. Resources: Jeremiah 18:7-10. Herbert E. Douglass, Messenger of the Lord, 1998, pp. 29, 30. Francis D. Nichol, Ellen G. White and Her Critics, 1951, pp. 102-111.
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#9004 - 10/28/04 08:31 PM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: Halfstep Denise]
Kevin H Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 663 Loc: New York	This is indeed not a test of a prophet, it is a text taken out of context. The context in BOTH Deuteronomy and Jeremiah is if a prophet is predicting something very specific, such as that those taken in Captvity when Nebuchadnezzar first came would be returned in two years, or Jeremiah's prophecy that a specific person would die before the year was out, the conditions continue unchanged (in the first prophecy our false prophet did not give any call to repentance. In Jeremiah's prophecy, there could have been modification if the false prophet did repent) and the event does NOT happen, we don't need to worry anymore about if they are a prophet or not. (while if the prophecy does happen, that is not a test that the person is a prophet, it only says that maybe they might be.) The Biblical tests of a prophet are: 1. Some supernatural event to catch the public attention and encourage us to look more into this person's claim. (This is where some specific claim that would point to something supernatural to catch our attention fits in.) 2. Union with former prophets on the perpose and perpetuity of the law of God and seeing their authority as coming from God's law, always lessor lights pointing to greater lights. 3. Their message always results in needing to make a moral choice. These are the tests, and looking at these tests and by their fruit ye shall know them. The tests of originality and all prophecys being fulfilled, or fulfilled in exact detail is not a Biblical test. We like to point out that Ezekiel predicted some things about Tyre that we point to, but Ezekiel's prediction was that Nebuchadnezzar was going to do those things to Tyre. We like to jump over that part of the prophecy. Deuteronomy, Daniel 1-6 (and somewhat 7 and 8) predicted that the exile would be THE LAST DAYS! They did not come to pass. Daniel 9-12 predicted what would have happened had Jesus been accepted when he came. They did not happen. The dispensationalists idea of Israel needing to return to the land and the church raptured out is because there was so much unfulfilled prophecy in the Old Testament, that they feel this situation needs to be set up for them all to be fulfilled. We don't need this and can still respect the unfulfilled prophecys as true prophecys by the threefold test.
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#9005 - 01/15/05 11:10 PM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: ted]
chilco Registered: 05/27/01 Posts: 239 Loc: Canada	Quote: This is indeed not a test of a prophet, it is a text taken out of context. We must be extremely careful here. If we say the prophecy of a prophet does not need to be fulfilled, we are walking on dangerous ground. We would have no more assurance that what God promised that He will do. Far better to look at the "conditions" of the prophecy, (as you did in one portion of your post) then to make such a statement. What God has promised, that He will do. Quote: The Biblical tests of a prophet are: 1. Some supernatural event to catch the public attention and encourage us to look more into this person's claim. (This is where some specific claim that would point to something supernatural to catch our attention fits in.) 2. Union with former prophets on the perpose and perpetuity of the law of God and seeing their authority as coming from God's law, always lessor lights pointing to greater lights. 3. Their message always results in needing to make a moral choice. I would never look to the supernatural as proof that someone is a prophet. The signs and wonders of the last days will deceive the whole world. Thirdly most false prophets will also claim to base their doctrines upon scripture and urge moral reforms. They may even appear to be great advocates of God's commandments. Even satan and his angels transform themselves into angels of light. For example, the apparitions of "mary" would fit all those requirements, yet they come from the wrong source. Now, that's not to say that God won't also use supernatural events to catch people's attention. And indeed, one of the tests is -- do they agree with the law AS GOD WROTE IT. Quote: Daniel 1-6 (and somewhat 7 and 8) predicted that the exile would be THE LAST DAYS! They did not come to pass. Daniel 9-12 predicted what would have happened had Jesus been accepted when he came. They did not happen. The main theme in the book of Daniel is not speaking about the end of Israel's exile, the book of Daniel is SPEAKING ABOUT THE TIME OF THE END. The book was to be sealed unto the time of the end. Which we understand as beginning at the end of Daniel's timelines which reached to 1798, 1844. The time of the end, is NOT the end of the world. Daniel's prophecies are not about a restored Israel at all. It does give them the 490 years to prepare for the coming Messiah, but then it also predicts that they would then BE DESTROYED. Daniel repeats that the vision IS SURE, the interpretation is trustworthy. It is truth and will come to pass. I'm surprised that anyone would use the book of Daniel as an example of "conditional" prophecy. It is not conditional prophecy at all. Many prophecies to Israel in the other books, were "conditional". However, many that are now lifted out of context by dispensationalists, were fulfilled by Israel's restoration after the Babylonian captivity, many were fulfilled by Christ's first advent, but some, due to Israel's failure to enter into a true convenant relationship with God as a people, and then their failure to accept Christ their Messiah as a people, were not fulfilled, they too will be fulfilled according to the NEW TESTAMENT plan to the spiritual Israel.
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#9006 - 01/15/05 11:36 PM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: venirae]
chilco Registered: 05/27/01 Posts: 239 Loc: Canada	Now the Video claims that Ellen White made predictions that did not come true. Rather than destroy faith in the prophetic voice, we need to look at the "conditions" "situation" and "purpose" of the so called "failed" preditions. For indeed a prophet must speak HONESTLY! We need to look at a few facts in relation to these accusations against EGW. But first we must establish the fact that a prophet is not the same as a psychic. A prophet’s messages have to do with issues dealing with a person’s, or a nation’s, relationship to God, and with their Christian walk. Thus we see EGW's message more concerned with the attitudes the population had at the time of writing--addressing the "now condition" and where those attitudes would lead, IF they were not changed. While a psychic deals with speculating about what is going to happen to famous individuals etc. a prophet is given messages of warning and reproof in the hopes that a change will take place.
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#9007 - 01/15/05 11:55 PM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: venirae]
chilco Registered: 05/27/01 Posts: 239 Loc: Canada	Other threads will deal with specific accusations of supposed "failed" prophecies of Ellen White. But here let's look at the BIBLICAL principle of the prophetic voice. Jeremiah 18.7-10 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Israel, as you recall was given BOTH promises, and curses. Promises to be fulfilled if they continue in the ways of the LORD. Curses to be fulfilled if they turn to other gods and serve them. These same principles apply to EGW's "predications".
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#9008 - 01/16/05 02:00 AM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: venirae]
Stan Jensen Carpe Diem!!! Registered: 09/15/06 Posts: 3692 Loc: 49.05° Lat- 122.3° Long	Chilco.. you have made some good commen sense comments. Appreciate that. Courage Stan
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#9009 - 01/24/05 09:25 AM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: venirae]
cardw Registered: 02/22/02 Posts: 1440 Loc: CA	Quote: But first we must establish the fact that a prophet is not the same as a psychic. A prophet’s messages have to do with issues dealing with a person’s, or a nation’s, relationship to God, and with their Christian walk. Well, are you then giving up on the idea that based on prophecies a prophet makes, we no longer can determine if they are true or not? If all prophecies are conditional, then one can simply claim that the conditions were not met. What about the claim that we can have confidence in a prophet when what they say comes true? In the scenerio you present, it appears to be more a preservation of probable deniability. Adventism has based many things in the ability of both the Bible and Ellen White to provide guidance for the future. Many of these have been foundational to Adventism itself. What I have observed is the gradual redefinition of the gift of prophecy, but not the abandonment of those ideas it was supposed to support. In fact your redefining of the prophetic gift as something that is not predictive, but more of a warning, really puts it more into a wisdom writing, rather than prophetic. Richard _________________________ Richard My Blog
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#9010 - 01/28/05 07:17 PM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: Goddesse]
Kevin H Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 663 Loc: New York	Richard, if you look at the CONTEXT of the verses that we misuse for this test, they are short predicted events which are not really a part of the theological prophecys but to encourage people to look closer at the theology of the prophecys. In the context of the verse in Jeremiah we had two prophets: one who was from one of the major prophetic schools who had prophecys in support of his ministry and used key texts from Isaiah to say that all would be well. Then you also had a second prophet who was living under the prophecys of many of the Old Testament curses. The Bible actually predicted his ministry to be cursed: He was from the cursed house of Eli who was not to have any old men. He was from the cursed house of the High Prest who supported the wrong king and was thus under curse excluded from the temple and it's services and blessings. He was the High Priest of the cursed northern Kingdom. Had Hezikiah not distroyed the high places the century before, this man would have been the high priest of the cursed high places. This man who was bearing many (if not all) the Old Testment prophecys of curses, was saying that yes the prophecy of hope would be nice, but not likely and for a test said "If the peace comes, you know that I am not sent from God, but if this year this prophet preaching peace dies, then look closer at my message." Should we expect all the centuries of Biblical curses and prophecys of evil which ended up falling on this man, Jeremiah, to fail and him actually be God's prophet? Or should we expect these centuries of prophecys of good and blessings which the other prophet appealed to, will they fail and this prophet with the background of blessings end up being the false prophet?
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#9011 - 01/31/05 12:47 AM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: ted]
cardw Registered: 02/22/02 Posts: 1440 Loc: CA	Quote: Richard, if you look at the CONTEXT of the verses that we misuse for this test, they are short predicted events which are not really a part of the theological prophecys but to encourage people to look closer at the theology of the prophecys. In the context of the verse in Jeremiah we had two prophets: one who was from one of the major prophetic schools who had prophecys in support of his ministry and used key texts from Isaiah to say that all would be well. Then you also had a second prophet who was living under the prophecys of many of the Old Testament curses. The Bible actually predicted his ministry to be cursed: He was from the cursed house of Eli who was not to have any old men. He was from the cursed house of the High Prest who supported the wrong king and was thus under curse excluded from the temple and it's services and blessings. He was the High Priest of the cursed northern Kingdom. Had Hezikiah not distroyed the high places the century before, this man would have been the high priest of the cursed high places. This man who was bearing many (if not all) the Old Testment prophecys of curses, was saying that yes the prophecy of hope would be nice, but not likely and for a test said "If the peace comes, you know that I am not sent from God, but if this year this prophet preaching peace dies, then look closer at my message." First, this really doesn't address the problem I presented. I was not referencing any specific text. I was simply stating that, in general, people would expect that for a prophet to be considered reliable, what they predict should come true, even under conditional circumstances. If you are saying that Ellen White's prophecies about the civil war, the end times, etc. were conditional, then she should have stated them conditionally. The other problem is, if God knows the end from the beginning, why is God giving prophecies that will not come true? And if one is going to have a conditional prophecy, why not prophecy the outcome of both conditions? What I read in both the Bible and Ellen White are limited views of history that are attempts to fit preconcieved ideas about God and the world into an authorative text of sorts. In all cases that I have examined it is more complex than anyone understands. Written accounts are limited by the nature of human logic and its expression and its assumptions. Richard _________________________ Richard My Blog
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#9012 - 01/31/05 09:05 AM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: Goddesse]
Kevin H Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 663 Loc: New York	First, the prophecys about the Civil war was more of a discussion of the current issues and possibilities that were going on, had the south won we would have had the United States, The Confederate States, the Republic of Texas, and the Republic of California all competeing for their economy, as the small countries in Europe and would have prolonged the 6th head. In Mrs. White's scheam of things on how the deadly would would be healed (and she saw the beast as including but bigger than just the papacy.)the US would have to win, hold the unity and grow into a major power that would end up uniting the whole world, and thus forming an immage to the beast. Also, some who have looked up the specific quotes from "the spirit behind the church" have pointed out that the producers of the movie had edited Mrs. White to remove the conditional and temperal aspects of these statements to make them FALSELY look like specific prophecy.
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#9013 - 01/31/05 09:18 AM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: Goddesse]
Kevin H Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 663 Loc: New York	Quote: The other problem is, if God knows the end from the beginning, why is God giving prophecies that will not come true? And if one is going to have a conditional prophecy, why not prophecy the outcome of both conditions? Because of the oneness between God's sovern power, ultamate control and not being limited to time and space, with the issue of freedom of choice. I'm sorry if my answer is short here, but I worked last night, took a four hour nap them worked a double shift, I hope you will allow me to return. But briefly, God does present the local possibility in a way that can be expanded to the fuller views. Deuteronomy predicts the exile as being THE LAST DAYS, Daniel 1-6, and to some extent 7 and 8 are all with the view of the imminant end of the world and setting up of the Messiah's kingdom. The four kings were: Nebuchadnezzar, Belshassar, Darius and Cyrus with Cyrus being followed by not another great emperor, but a weak then divided nation with an attempt of reunion into a great empire that ends up in chaos. And from this failed prophecy we see echoed four great emperiors: Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, followed by the Holy Roman Emperor, a world of independent nations, to final unification through economic cooperation that appears briefly to be the greatest empire that controls every person, but ends up in chaos and the second coming of Jesus. Failed prophecys show the issues that we will be choosing and facing in the grand sweep of history. By studying what COULD have happened, we will be ready for what WILL happen.
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#9014 - 01/31/05 09:23 AM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: Goddesse]
Kevin H Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 663 Loc: New York	Quote: What I read in both the Bible and Ellen White are limited views of history that are attempts to fit preconcieved ideas about God and the world into an authorative text of sorts. In all cases that I have examined it is more complex than anyone understands. Written accounts are limited by the nature of human logic and its expression and its assumptions.--Richard Richard, I have come to admire your insights. Unfortunetely you seem to be a brokenhearted-fundamentalist, finding your foothold crumbeling. You take these pieces of information and tend to place them in a context of doubt. If only you could place the exact same facts in a context of faith, you would be a tremendous evangelist. I have very little dissagreement with your content, where you and I dissagree is in perspective in how we view the content. Keep on studying!
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#9015 - 02/01/05 08:39 AM Re: 9. If not all predictions by a prophet come to pass, then the person must be a false prophet. [Re: ted]
cardw Registered: 02/22/02 Posts: 1440 Loc: CA	Quote: Richard, I have come to admire your insights. Unfortunetely you seem to be a brokenhearted-fundamentalist, finding your foothold crumbeling. You take these pieces of information and tend to place them in a context of doubt. If only you could place the exact same facts in a context of faith, you would be a tremendous evangelist. I have never seen this reference (brokenhearted-fundamentalist) applied to me, but I will have to take a look at it. It may have some truth to it. Though, I have not held to fundamental or historic adventism since I was 17. I am now over a quarter century past that time, thank goodness! I do have faith in what I experience both in my inner and outer life. I have faith that I have the ability to grow and understand in many more ways than intellectually. What I do doubt and may be disappointed in is the ability of the Bible to be the final authority about God. I believe that God is the final authority and if I believe that God and His spirit are present in the world, then that is where I am going to find the best information about God. I am disappointed in the fact that proof texts are not proof. It is so much more secure to see the Bible as some kind of magical code book about God. But that disappointment is long gone. I am glad that life is so much more than that and the mystery of God really never ends. The point at which I think I have it figured out, is the point that I stop living both intellectually and spiritually. So, yes I doubt very much that anyone really has a handle on the God, spirituality, where we are going, morality, and all the various points where we might have fear. What I have learned is that it is good to closely, and honestly examine all of our ideas. In doing that I have learned that the issues are too complex to simply codify in words. It requires an active spiritual connection to provide "answers" for each moment. And to hear these "answers" one has to let go of all assumptions about what God is going or not going to do. And that is pretty frightening for most people and understandably so. I don't see this insight in Ellen White's work. I see a lot of fear and paranoia. Some of those same ideas can be presented in the Bible, but often that is more the interpreters or translators spin. And, recently, I have come to believe, the spin provided by those who selected which books should be in the Bible. When someone tells the truth, in the past, it has to be somehow blessed by a particular "Biblical" view. This has been presented as a safeguard. It has not worked as any kind of safeguard in my observation. In most cases, it really as acted as a justification for all kinds of manipulation and fear. When I experience truth it is most powerful when it resonates with things that have been just below my consciousness. Things that I have known on an intuitive level, but have not been able to give words to. When someone says these types of truths in fresh ways that awaken things that provide the fruit that I look and long for. Peace, joy, the love of living, and all the abundance that I believe is the true evidence that someone is living in truth. I do believe in the idea that by the fruit of any idea, one may know. Richard _________________________ Richard My Blog
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