SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle - unOFFICIAL ADVENTIST FORUM

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#92158 - 08/19/06 08:03 PM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: Mandy]
Gerry Cabalo Registered: 03/20/00 Posts: 7436 Loc: Wilkesboro, NC	Quote: The KJV has a massive mistranslation at Dan 8:14. It doesn't say days and it doesn't say cleansed. William Miller simply got it wrong because he didn't understand what his own bible was telling him, because he was working from a bad translation. /Bevin The LXX & Vulgate translate it as "cleansed". Bad translations too, huh? But let's humor you and use what the other translators use, and see if it makes any difference. NCV: "Then the holy place will be repaired." NLT: "Then the Temple will be restored." NRSV: "Then the sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state." NKJV: "Then the sanctuary shall be cleansed." NIV: "Then the santuary will be reconsecrated." MESSAGE: Then the Sanctuary will be set right again." GNT: "Then the Temple will be restored." NASB: "The holy place will be properly restored." Young"s: "Then is the holy place declared right." What sanctuary/temple is the angel Gabriel telling Daniel about? Daniel already understood from Jeremiah that the 70 yrs of captivity were about to end. He may very will be still alive when Cyrus gave to decree to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. And Gabriel already told Daniel that it will be rebuilt, but that the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed by "the people of the prince who is to come." Dan 9:26. If the 2300 evening-morning/days were literal days, show where something happened within 6.38 yrs from the time Daniel received the vision. The fact is that there was none. Only in connection with the 2300 days does Daniel use ereb boqer to describe day; in all the others, he uses yom. I find that rather curious or significant. That suggests to me he or Gabriel must have been attaching some special meaning to it. Cont'd. Gerry
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#92159 - 08/19/06 08:18 PM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: TheLittleGiraffe]
Gerry Cabalo Registered: 03/20/00 Posts: 7436 Loc: Wilkesboro, NC	Unless Dan 8 & 9 are put together (and the connection is inescapable), and the 2300 evening-morning are understood as years, then 8:14 is a meaningless verse with no beginning and no ending. But Gabriel was very explicit when he said that "the vision of the evenings and mornings which was told is true," and that it concerned - "..things (that) won't happen for a long time." NCV "..for it refers to many days from now." NRSV "..for it concerns the distant future." NIV "..it will be a long time before it does come true." GNT "..for it pertains to many days in the future." NASB How distant? How about trying 2300 yrs, not days? And if he was talking about years, which sanctuary is he talking about? Most commentators agree that the sanctuary destroyed in 9:25 was the NT temple that was destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D. It is inescapable to me that Gabriel must have been talking about the heavenly sanctuary and that Daniel understood it to be so. Cont'd. Gerry
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#92160 - 08/19/06 08:30 PM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: TheLittleGiraffe]
Gerry Cabalo Registered: 03/20/00 Posts: 7436 Loc: Wilkesboro, NC	If Dan 8:14 was referring to the earthly being restored that was destroyed by Titus, then our evangelical Protestant friends are correct in looking forward to Israel rebuilding another temple and restoring its sacrificial services. And they are looking for the Antichrist to destroy this rebuilt temple. I suspect that the reason Robertson was upset with the cease-fire was because he may have been hoping for this interpretation to be fulfilled. The evangelicals have erroneously placed a looooooonnnnnnnnng gap between the 69th and the 70th week, and ascribe to the Antichrist what Christ has done, i.e. 10 confirm the covenant, 2) bring an end to sacrifice and offering which His death as the sacrificial lamb took place at the Cross. This gap has no justification whatsoever! But if the 2300 days is understood as years and connected with the 70 weeks/490 yrs of Daniel, then we have a beginning for the 2300 days that ended in 1844. Cont'd. Gerry
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#92161 - 08/19/06 09:00 PM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: TheLittleGiraffe]
Gerry Cabalo Registered: 03/20/00 Posts: 7436 Loc: Wilkesboro, NC	In the typology of the earthly sanctuary, it was cleansed as you know in the yearly service, the Day of Atonement. It was a very solemn day because the Israelites understood it to be a day of judgment. The santuary needed to be cleansed because of pollution. "Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God: "O house of Israel, let Us have no more of all your abominations. When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My santuary to defilre it - My house - and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My santuary for you. Thus says the Lord God; "No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My santuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of israel." Ez 44:6-9 NKJ. "Her prophets are insolent, treacherous people; Her priests have polluted the sanctuary, They have done violence to the law. The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness." Zeph 3:4,5 NKJ Just as the earthly sanctuary needed cleansing, the heavenly needs cleansing, or if you prefer, "restored to its rightful state," "properly restored," "set right," "vindicated,". Satan, the greatest polluter of all, polluted God's sanctuary in heaven when he rebelled. It is further polluted by people who profess faith in Christ but who are "uncircumcised in heart." Since names are written in the book of life when one professes belief in Christ, and since not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom...", and since the RCC has also "cast truth to the ground," and ravaged the heavenly sanctuary and Christ's ministry by the institution of the mass and the priesthood, and since God has been blamed by Satan and by the insurance companies for all the mess were in, it is therefore proper that the heavenly sancuary be cleansed, or restored to its pristine state again. This can only happen if there is a judgment. No judgment, no vindication of God & His sanctuary. No judgment, no restoration. No judgment/cleansing/restoration of the sanctuary to its rightful/righteous state, there can be no receiving of the kingdom for the saints. See Dan 7. Bevin, the 2300 days/1844 is no cornfield SDA concoction. It is as Biblically sound as the Sabbath, the non-immortality of man doctrine, or the literal/visible Second Coming, or any other SDA teaching. But, just like those three doctrines, people find all kinds of reasons to reject them Gerry.
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#92162 - 08/19/06 09:53 PM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: Mandy]
bevin Registered: 09/04/02 Posts: 4699 Loc: New England	The astute reader will notice that Gerry completely ignored the facts that (1) The phrase in Gen and Dan is different (2) The phrase in Gen has all three words evening, morning, and day (3) That Daniel has a word for day (4) That Daniel uses that word when he means '7 days' (5) That some of the translations and say '7' instead of 'week' to avoid the confusion There is another fact that Gerry glosses over. Daniel does NOT say that the 2300 starts at the same time as the 490. The 2300 is a length of time answer to a question in verse 13. Read the question, then the answer. The 490 is starts with a different event! It is an answer to a different question. These are not new discoveries of mine. These are issues that main stream SDA theologians have been raising since the late 1800's. They have never received a satisfactory answer, but the fundamentalist wing of the SDA denomination refuses to accept that there are huge difficulties in this particular belief, and that it is not worth the cost of its defense. How many of these issues were discussed in SS today? /Bevin
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#92163 - 08/20/06 02:23 AM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: Mandy]
Gerry Cabalo Registered: 03/20/00 Posts: 7436 Loc: Wilkesboro, NC	Quote: *bevin said:* The astute reader will notice that Gerry completely ignored the facts that (1) The phrase in Gen and Dan is different (2) The phrase in Gen has all three words evening, morning, and day And the astute student will notice that genesis & Daniel use the same Heb words - ereb boqer. Quote: (3) That Daniel has a word for day (4) That Daniel uses that word when he means '7 days' Yes, that Daniel uses yom for 'day' in every instance in his book except in connection with the 2300 days, in which, curiously enough, he uses ereb boqer. Quote: (5) That some of the translations and say '7' instead of 'week' to avoid the confusion See the translations and commentaries I cited that either translate it as 'years' or 'weeks'. Quote: There is another fact that Gerry glosses over. Daniel does NOT say that the 2300 starts at the same time as the 490. The 2300 is a length of time answer to a question in verse 13. Read the question, then the answer. The 490 is starts with a different event! It is an answer to a different question. The astute student will notice the connection between Dan 8 & 9. Gabriel explained the meaning of Daniel 8 with the exception of the mareh of the 2300 days, 8:26. Without 9:24-27, Dan 8:14 would be meaningless, having no ending and no beginning. When Gabriel comes to Daniel to give him "skill to understand....the matter, and understand the vision [mareh], what vision/mareh was he referring to? There is no question recorded on Dan 9 to which v.24-27 is attempting to answer. There is no vision shown in chapter 9. Therefore the astute student would have to refer to the unexplained portion of the vision/hazon in chapter 8, which is the vision/mareh of 8:14,26. And if 70 sevens were to be cut off (that is the basic meaning of the Heb. chatak), cut off from what? It has to be from a larger number, meaning the 2300 days!!! Quote: These are not new discoveries of mine. These are issues that main stream SDA theologians have been raising since the late 1800's. They have never received a satisfactory answer, but the fundamentalist wing of the SDA denomination refuses to accept that there are huge difficulties in this particular belief, and that it is not worth the cost of its defense. For people who refuse to believe, no matter how much evidence is produced, it is never sufficient. I believe Frank Holbrook once edited a book that dealt extensively with the questions raised. Quote: How many of these issues were discussed in SS today? /Bevin My little congregation SS class has been dealing with the issues you are talking about for the past several Sabbaths & we're not done yet. There is no glossing over. Let me repeat what I said in another post. You keep telling us what these verses are NOT. Then tell us what they mean, and see whether they can stand up to scrutiny. Gerry
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#92164 - 08/20/06 06:18 AM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: TheLittleGiraffe]
bevin Registered: 09/04/02 Posts: 4699 Loc: New England	Quote: And if 70 sevens were to be cut off (that is the basic meaning of the Heb. chatak), cut off from what? Quote: 24. Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. 25. Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26. And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27. And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate 490 years remaining in the whole of Israelite history. It is the last 490 years of the Iraelite nation that are being described, not the first 490 years of something. As for your claim that the 7 is 7 days, it is ludicrious to claim that given the other texts I quoted. /Bevin
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#92165 - 08/21/06 07:46 AM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: Mandy]
Aliensanctuary Registered: 03/03/05 Posts: 498 Loc: Northern California	Quote: 10. His (the small horn's) power reached to the heavens where it attacked the heavenly armies, throwing some of the heavenly beings and stars to the ground and trampling them. 11. He even challenged the Commander of heaven's armies by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his Temple. 12. But the army of heaven was restrained from destroying him for this sin. As a result, sacrilege was committed against the Temple ceremonies, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did.* 13. Then I heard two of the holy ones talking to each other. One of them said, "How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven's armies be trampled on?" 14. The other replied, "It will take twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be restored." These events must occur during the "War in Heaven", that is, the war in space to herd Satan and his followers to Earth and destroy their spacecraft, thus marooning them on our backwards planet. It's not a clean war, though. Zion, the flat-topped pyramid/mountain City of God upon which the Real Sanctuary rests, is attacked, perhaps while it is on the surface of the Earth. Satan's forces overcome those guarding the Sanctuary, forcing them inside the city. Unable to breach the city's defenses beneath their feet, Satan's forces destroy the Temple Complex, including the barbecue pit used by the commander of Heaven's armies. Satan's armies trample on the exterior of Zion for 2300 days, or approx. 6.39 years. At that time the forces of good rescue Zion. The rebuilding of the Temple Complex occurs after that time period. I'm thinking that everything we read in the prophecies of Rev. has already occurred, but to us it's the future. To God, though, it's the past. Messengers have been sent back in time to either warn us, or, to try to alter events to make the outcome turn out the way it's supposed to, that is, Good triumphing over Evil. Sometimes I wonder if the 4 Beast of Dan 7 failed to appear in all of its destructive glory as it was supposed to.
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#92166 - 08/23/06 01:42 AM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: ]
Aliensanctuary Registered: 03/03/05 Posts: 498 Loc: Northern California	The Statue of Kingdoms in Dan 2 and the 4 Beasts coming out of an angry sea in Dan 7 are not visions of the near future given to Daniel, but, of the distant future, near the very end of time as stated. Whatever kingdom follows Greece in our history books is irrelevant in these two visions, because somehow, these 3 kingdoms will reappear in the last days, maybe in sequence, maybe simultaneously, followed by the Final Destructive Killing Machine Kingdom at the very end. It may be a waste of time to try to identify the 4th Kingdom and the 4th Beast as something that exists today. The time periods, 2300 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, are likely to all be distant-future periods, also.
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#92167 - 08/23/06 06:11 AM Re: SSL#8 (August 19-25 06) Day-Year Principle [Re: ]
Beryl Registered: 04/05/03 Posts: 2194 Loc: Perth, Western Australia	[quoteI've really begun to appreciate Bevin's cool logic. ] Yes, even the devil used "cool logic" when persuading Eve to take the forbidden fruit! Logic compels the use of the "day-year" prophetic interpretation. No other interpretation will fit into the time period outlined by history -- unless, of course, you want to take this bit of Scripture right out of its context -- and call that "cool logic". Beryl _________________________ "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves."
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