Hello all;
I am here to try and seek understanding on certain issues. One such issue is the 4th demission, which we know as time, and creation. I have always had a problem with the interpretation of creation week. There are 2 lights spoken of one in Gen 1:3 and then in Gen 1:16. With that in mind I think one needs to remember that time is only relative to the one that perceives it. We know that the faster we travel the slower the clock ticks to the one that is still stationary. Meaning if you set a clock and I set a clock and I could travel close to the speed of light. I travel for an hour at that speed; then I am only one hour older however you are about 60 years older. Why? Because time is relevant to the one that is in it. I know often this is a hard thing to grasp, but it is true non the less. So when I read Genesis and the thought of the Big Bang I often wonder if this conception of how we view time does not come into play. I really can not say what happened all I can come up with is that when Adam is created that is when man’s perception of time starts.
Does anyone else have these thoughts or ideas or am I alone in this thinking.
I am not trying to start any type of arguments I am just sharing what my thoughts are.
E=MC^2 does mean something and that knowledge was given for a reason.
Thanks for your time.
Int21h

The idea that the days of creation were actually longer than the 24 hour periods we know today is not at all new. While that may have been the case, it answers some of our questions and creates others.

That would mean huge amounts of time between the creation of plants (3rd day), sea life and birds (5th day) and animals and humans (6th day). All this without death! There is our new problem. While thousands or millions of years could have passed during the creation "week", according to the Scripture, "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)

Jeremiah 12:4 seems to indicate that even the death of plants and animals are a result of sin. "How long shall the land mourn, and the herbs of every field wither, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein? the beasts are consumed, and the birds; because they said, He shall not see our last end."

Isaiah 11:6-9 presents a picture of the new earth without death of animals or plants. "the wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."

Although Isaish 60:20 throws us a twist... "Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended."

Yet Romans 8:19-22 seems clear that the death, suffering and destruction of all creation is due to man's sin. "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."

Good questions, int21h, and good responses, Shane. Just from the science side, special relativity (which is what you described) doesn't really help with days of creation, because the time dilation occurs (noticeably at least) only near the speed of light, and the earth wouldn't have been travelling at those speeds during creation. Under general relativity time is also effected near strong gravitational fields, but again these conditions were not really present during creation week. Fascinating stuff to think about, though.

I am not trying to cause any type of confusion but I do seek answers if indeed any can be given.
You cited this scripture

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"by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)

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I often thought that sin was already here, before Adam.
It seems to me that the advisory was in the garden. He is the originator of sin.

EZEKIEL 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

EZEKIEL 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

I have posed this question to so many that I often loss hope myself of any real answer. What upsets me is some come to me and say that I was correct in my thoughts and they leave their faith and become atheist. This is not my desire. I only seek for answers to my questions. With that being put up front. Here is my dilemma: I find it a hard thing to except Satan being allowed to live and keep going while we here on Earth have to pay daily for the sin. He tempts and keeps going just to be destroyed in a lake of fire at the end. Look at his life span as to that of one that just choose not to accept Christ. Both will go in the lake of fire and yes Satan will be the last one to be consumed but what about that poor soul that just said no to the acceptance of salvation. I often think I am not seeing things clearly when I read the Bible. If there is any information or suggestion on books that you may think could help me I would like to read them. I am really into science string theory and M theory I do know many find harmony with their belief and faith I am seeking the same thing. Yes I am an Adventist that is why I am seeking help here. Please be nice and patient with me.
int21h

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the earth wouldn't have been travelling at those speeds during creation. . . .these conditions were not really present during creation week. Fascinating stuff to think about, though.

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On what do you base those statements?

Repying to Ed here:

Fair enough questions: I was probably over-simplifying. Short answer is that I'm basing those answers on the Biblical creation account, since that seems to be what int21h is trying to harmonise.

Here's a more detailed look at the special and general relativity cases:

In terms of velocity, the only velocity that would yield time dilation (e.g. making the 7 literal evenings and mornings equivalent to millions of years, which is what I believe int21h was referring to) would be velocity of one object *relative* to another (hence the term 'relativity'). Under special relativity there is no privileged frame of reference to which motion can be compared, so we can't say 'earth was moving at 0.99c' unless we say 'relative to...' So I guess it would be possible to think of an observer that is moving relative to the earth at 0.9999c (I haven't done the calculations, but it would need to be at least that for 7 days to appear like millions of years). For that observer, the earth would be moving at that velocity relative to him/her. If the creation account was written by such an observer (or such a (divine) observer observed it and inspired the writer), I guess such a case might be made... but to that observer the time passing on the earth would certainly not appear like 'evening/mornings' or literal days, even if his/her own time appeared that way.

Too wordy and too complex, but you get the idea: if what is sought is a way to harmonise seven days and millions of years, special relativity won't do that for you - or if it will, it will require so many implausible and extra-biblical assumptions that you may as well just say Santa did it and be done with it.

For general relativity, the kind of time distortions needed would be found near the event horizon of a black hole, or possibly near a sun much larger than our own, but in either of those circumstances life would be ripped to pieces by tidal forces, so that explanation won't work either.

To int21h on the more theological question of 'one man's sin'... Satan was not a man, so his sin did not *directly* damn humankind: it was the decisions of Adam and Eve that did that.

On the question of Satan's long life: life without God is a torment. I genuinely believe that Satan is in torment and desparation now, and that his eventual death will come as a relief... He is not reigning in hell as some kind of king, he is a sad, desparate wreck of his former self, just trying to hurt God as much as possible before his inevitable fate.

I guess my thoughts would go something like this.
Time was relative to God. He was the one doing the creation so time was relative to Him, not the earth. If He were traveling @ C then the time on earth would be passing quickly. Thus he started out creating and letting things follow their natural order, ie evolution. He could start the process and let it go. By the time man He created man God had isolated Him to the Garden of Eden and that Sabbath Day for God became mans first day and Adams relative to time. This is my thought on how dinosaurs, Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon man came on the earth. I am well aware of were the church stands on this issue. I am sorry I just cannot buy into cross genetic engineering. This motif that I listed above seems to fit me better than what the church gives as an example as to what could have happen. It also flows with this biblical text of Gen 6 1 – 4. I find in this text some type of comfort to think that it is referring to pre historic man and the son’s of God went into them and they bore children that became mighty. I also know that some would say these are the decedents of Cain. I guess one could see it that way. I may be reading too much into this and often I find myself trying to make evolution and the Bible make some type of harmony. Archeologist have found a lot of things buried in the earth and often I just took what pastors had to say about those dates on those bones. Till I decided to do a study on carbon dating before I did a sermon one Sabbath; I had to make my findings meet the subject or the sermon could not have been delivered.
Yes the Seventh-day Adventist taught me not to take any ones word for it to study it myself. That is what bought me out of Catholicism, but that same thing that was instilled in me has kept going. I question everything and if it does not line up or make some type of sense I keep digging into it till I can find harmony with it. I often wished I had stayed in ignorance about things because then my mind would have the rest that it longs for.
int21h

Einstein wanted to call it the Theory on Invariants, to avoid exactly this kind of confusion

The speed Earth travels through the universe is irrelevant to the apparent passage of time ON EARTH. Speeding it up does not make it possible to do more work per EARTH day.

And Gen 1 clearly talks about EARTH days

/Bevin