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#9772 - 02/27/04 04:33 PM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: Goddesse]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
While these writings are some of Ellen White's better presentations I would note how much text you have to wade through before you get to the red sections. There is a heaviness and a self consciousness to her writings. Let me give you an example from what you posted....
Quote:
The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.
No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ.
The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image.
When she states that the closer we come to Jesus the more faulty we will feel in our own eyes creates a paradox. Because it is so self conscious it not only asks us to pass judgement on ourselves, it also presents low self esteem as a virtue.
It may appear that way to you, Richard, but to someone like me, who is prone to a continual and oppressive sense of my sinfulness, unworthiness, etc. -- which nothing, not even faith in a loving, forgiving God can ameliorate permanently -- it does not appear that way. Instead, it gives me comfort, and more than just comfort, it gives me some sort of anchor. Living where I live (meaning in the kind of head I'm stuck with), the levels of pain and rage and frustration I feel, the amount of confusion I deal with spiritually, can be extremely overwhelming and exhausting. It can also be terribly uprooting. I will have a good time of things in the Lord for a week or two, mistakenly believe that "finally" all will be well with my soul, and then BAM, the bottom drops out and I might as well have been kicked into the sewers for the way I feel. During those times everything is dark and senseless around me. Nothing "coheres" really -- it all becomes disconnected, flotsam floating in jetsam, no meaning, no sense of reality, no awareness of truth or heart or spirit, just pain unassuaged and with it, self-loathing, self-recrimination, despair, suicidal feelings, and there's nothing I can do to "fix" it. I just have to endure it until it passes. Sometimes it passes quickly, within a day or two. Other times it lingers for weeks. I have no way of predicting when it will break. It's like being thrown into a well and you don't know when you are getting out -- you only know one thing: you are not capable of getting yourself out, and must depend entirely upon some serendipitous aid coming to your rescue, whether it is in the form of some word of Scripture finally connecting inside, or some significant experience with another person, or some sudden insight, or unexpected delight in something, some unforeseen blessing large or small connecting with the reawakening of the ability to even feel gratitude (for all such feelings are locked away during these times), or just a quiet wave passing over leaving you on regular ground again.
My point is not to catalog my sufferings here but just to give you a backdrop to why I say that reading things like this are a comfort and an anchor to me. They make me feel less lost, less abandoned, less forsaken, less overlooked, less drowning, less forgotten, less miserable and isolated and alone. I don't know if that's a good thing. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's a delusion and I'd be better off just facing the reality. But when reality becomes a case of macrocosmic apoptosis, it becomes really daunting to "just face" it. I would rather have a pleasing fantasy where I don't not matter, where I'm not disposable and insignificant. I already know I am so who cares whether I want to pretend I'm not?
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#9773 - 02/27/04 04:53 PM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: ]
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Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 13225
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
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I can sympathize with the feelings of your "black" periods. Although my history differs from yours, of course, I had many times of depression with very dark thoughts.
I don't know how the Lord will choose to free you from those, but please try to always put your faith in Him, for He will not forget you. In my experience, He actually gave me a spirit of praise and I was able to lift up my hands and glorify Him during the darkest times of deepest despair. God knew that I just could not muster something reasonable, like to will myself to hang on. I could only cry out for help and that was the way He gave as my escape.
As a result of that, I try to encourage others with the encouragement that God has given me. If God helped me in a very real way, He can and will do it for you, because of His great love for you. I don't know if it will come through other people or through a manifestation of His power, but the Bible declares that nothing can separate us from His love- even our own past.
He will not desert you in the time of your greatest need. Sometimes it's okay just to sit and wait on Him
_________________________
Gail gail@adventistforum.comAnd the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17
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#9774 - 02/28/04 09:38 AM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: ]
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Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1431
Loc: CA
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Nico, I would never presume to tell you what to believe or discount what you find to be true. Please realize that my impressions are not yours and how you feel about something as personal as this is beyond any judgement by myself or anyone else. With this in mind I would like to comment on a few things you posted since I too have experienced what you describe, though my solution for my own journey may have nothing to do with what you experience. Quote:
Me in a previous post...
When she states that the closer we come to Jesus the more faulty we will feel in our own eyes creates a paradox. Because it is so self conscious it not only asks us to pass judgement on ourselves, it also presents low self esteem as a virtue.
Quote:
It may appear that way to you, Richard, but to someone like me, who is prone to a continual and oppressive sense of my sinfulness, unworthiness, etc. -- which nothing, not even faith in a loving, forgiving God can ameliorate permanently -- it does not appear that way.
She may very accurately describe what you experience because I believe that Ellen White was experiencing it as well. This is quite evident from her own biographical writings about her early experiences. She was experiencing a very deep shame about her unworthiness in her teen years. I would ask, "What possibly could a Victorian teenager have done to feel that sinful?" Ellen White also suffered from what we would probably call fibromialgia and chronic fatigue syndrome today. She was diagnosed as hystrionic by her own physician. There may be some symptom magnification on her part, but I believe the trauma to her head caused damage to the fascial system in her head which placed a chronic pressure on the central nervous system. This would cause fairly severe symptoms to emerge during times of emotional stress.
I would also suggest that part of you doesn't really believe that God forgives. I am not making a moral judgement, just an observation. I would ask you, what would it take for you to believe that God forgives you?
Quote:
Living where I live (meaning in the kind of head I'm stuck with), the levels of pain and rage and frustration I feel, the amount of confusion I deal with spiritually, can be extremely overwhelming and exhausting. It can also be terribly uprooting. I will have a good time of things in the Lord for a week or two, mistakenly believe that "finally" all will be well with my soul, and then BAM, the bottom drops out and I might as well have been kicked into the sewers for the way I feel. During those times everything is dark and senseless around me. Nothing "coheres" really -- it all becomes disconnected, flotsam floating in jetsam, no meaning, no sense of reality, no awareness of truth or heart or spirit, just pain unassuaged and with it, self-loathing, self-recrimination, despair, suicidal feelings, and there's nothing I can do to "fix" it. I just have to endure it until it passes.
I can relate to this experience and it is no longer a place I go. I have endured many periods of deep self-loathing and hopelessness. I have walked through the dark places.
Quote:
you only know one thing: you are not capable of getting yourself out, and must depend entirely upon some serendipitous aid coming to your rescue, whether it is in the form of some word of Scripture finally connecting inside, or some significant experience with another person, or some sudden insight, or unexpected delight in something, some unforeseen blessing large or small connecting with the reawakening of the ability to even feel gratitude (for all such feelings are locked away during these times), or just a quiet wave passing over leaving you on regular ground again.
I can also relate to this experience as well. Let me demonstrate something from the quote you used as your "support." I may be completely off base and I am simply guessing based on my own experience.
Quote:
No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness.
If you believe this to be true then you are feeling your sinfulness. You have described it very acurately. I would ask you then, "How long do you have to wait for the deep seated love for Jesus?" And, "How many times do you have to go through deep seated self loathing of your own sinfulness to qualify for permanant status?"
Do you see why I would see this as a demonstration of low self esteem as a virtue? Statements like these, taken literally, are a trap.
Quote:
My point is not to catalog my sufferings here but just to give you a backdrop to why I say that reading things like this are a comfort and an anchor to me. They make me feel less lost, less abandoned, less forsaken, less overlooked, less drowning, less forgotten, less miserable and isolated and alone. I don't know if that's a good thing. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's a delusion and I'd be better off just facing the reality. But when reality becomes a case of macrocosmic apoptosis, it becomes really daunting to "just face" it. I would rather have a pleasing fantasy where I don't not matter, where I'm not disposable and insignificant. I already know I am so who cares whether I want to pretend I'm not?
The delusion is the idea that you are disposable. You have mistaken that for reality. I am wondering who told you and convinced you that you were disposable and insignificant? My guess is you are directing your rage toward yourself. Maybe you need to direct your rage against the idea that you are disposable. Jesus certainly seemed to have a lot of rage toward this idea. Why do you think he raged within the temple when the priests were teaching through their system of sacrifice that God favored the wealthy? I think he knew the pain that this idea caused the poor. And He demonstrated his disfavor very graphically over turning tables and driving those who would teach this away. And yet after He finished, the children got it, because they felt so comfortable that they came and sat with Him. This is a powerful story.
What would you have to hear to feel valued and significant? Answer this with your feelings. And when you know what you need to hear, imagine Jesus with His arms around you wispering this in your ear.
What you may label as fantasy is the place where the spiritual journey is fought. Spirituality cannot be described in words or theology or quotes. It is what you believe in your heart. If Ellen White helps you to get there, then by all means go there with all your heart. Be clear on this, you are not insignificant, and you are not disposable. You have, as your birthright, to be seen and to be heard. This is heart knowlege and needs no proof text or quote from Ellen White.
Richard
_________________________
Richard My Blog
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#9775 - 02/28/04 02:17 PM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: Goddesse]
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Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 2145
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
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Hi, Richard, You have made a very interesting post (27/2. I like the way that you have summed it all up with your last sentence. Quote:
Love reduces fear, and when there is less fear, there is more trust, and when there is more trust there is more awareness, and when there is more awareness there is more connection with the commuity around us, and when there is more connection there is more love. This is the spiritual circle. And it begins with the Love of God.
This is just what the Apostle John was talking about in 1 John 4:16, “And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God and God in him.”
Whether a person realises it or not, the love that is in the heart comes from God. They may not know anything about God, but God is already reaching out to them. Our problem is that we see things too much in black and white – they have either accepted Christ or they have not. But long before a person has ever known God, He has been working on the life.
In Galatians 5:16-26 we have the contrast between “the acts of the sinful nature” and “the fruit of the Spirit”, and these two natures are constantly at war with each other. Which one has the mastery in my life? Well, this is where we should be able to see which way our lives are going. We should be able to look back and see growth.
Quote:
While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts.
In other words, I go to the garden of my life, and, accompanied by the Master Gardener, I check for fruit. What do I find? Well, there is some good fruit, but it looks as though some fruit fly has infested some of the fruit. The Master Gardener suggests the best remedy, and I consent to Him applying it. It appears also that the tree is lacking in water, and so I ask the Master Gardener to help me rearrange my life so that I have more time to spend with Him obtaining the Water of Life. And, yes, the fruit is not as well-formed as it should be, and again the Master Gardener offers to loosen up the ground around my life, provide the correct fertiliser, and water it well in. He also points out some pruning which needs to be done, to which I consent.
Quote:
There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.
The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.
But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.
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The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness....Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.
I realise that some of these procedures may not be comfortable, but necessary. Had I allowed the Master Gardener free reign in the garden of my life, these things would have been attended to as needed, but I do like doing things my own way!! I have the tendency to think that I know best, and that if I work hard enough in the garden, it will eventually be OK.
Quote:
So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us.
It isn’t until I ask the Master Gardener to check out my garden with me that I become aware of my poor gardening efforts, and finally say, “Look, Lord, I am a very poor gardener. Will You please just take over my garden.” And He says, “My dear child, why have you waited so long to ask Me?”
Quote:
The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.
No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ.
The other day I spotted the Master Gardener just about to root out what appeared to be a beautiful flower. I rushed out to tell Him to leave that one alone, but He smiled and said, “This apparently beautiful flower is in fact a poisonous weed. Left here it will ruin your garden.” I consented to its removal. It was painful to see it go – the roots were deep, and it required a lot of digging to get rid of all of it.
Quote:
No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ.
I am so glad that I decided to leave the Master Gardener in charge of my garden. I am now rejoicing in seeing some beautiful fruit – a lady who was an alcoholic almost at death’s door now free from alcohol, and thanking God for her release – another lady chained with the addiction of over-the-counter drugs, “doctor shopping”, etc., proud of her atheism, now acknowledging that there must be a God, and planning to come to church with me – a lonely lady now rejoicing in the fellowship of church – an abused lady, now finding her way to Christ and His love. The fruit is beautiful.
Oh, yes, the Master Gardener still has a lot of work to do. He has shown me part of a plan He has for my garden, and promises to show me a little more as we go along. What I have seen has been enough to make me know that I will love Him for the rest of my life. He has promised one day to take me to His home and show me His beautiful garden. I can hardly wait!
God bless
Beryl
_________________________
"Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves."
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#9776 - 02/29/04 08:04 AM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: Vera]
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Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1431
Loc: CA
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Quote:
It isn’t until I ask the Master Gardener to check out my garden with me that I become aware of my poor gardening efforts, and finally say, “Look, Lord, I am a very poor gardener. Will You please just take over my garden.” And He says, “My dear child, why have you waited so long to ask Me?”
This illustrates my point. This is the decision that makes it all happen. Any focus on improving the fruit delays this decision. And again I make my point. If we cannot do anything to bring about righteous fruit then there is no need to encourage us to focus on that work. Either God's power can do it or it can't. When Ellen White makes this statement she negates the faith process.
Quote:
The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.
Since the Love of God brings about awareness, there is a shift in desires and one does not have to be told to keep the law of God. Any statement that says that OUR works are part of OUR redemption encourages us to focus on what we can do. I would say abandon any idea that to that regard. I might encourage someone to utilize their wisdom in not doing as many unlawful things as possible from a pragmatic motive. It simply is a better way to live. There is no boasting in doing well for myself by taking care of myself. The whole point of living a life of love is that it feels better, its healthier, and when one experiences that; who wants to go back to the old ways? These statements on works feel more like a failsafe in case God doesn't come through.
Quote:
The other day I spotted the Master Gardener just about to root out what appeared to be a beautiful flower. I rushed out to tell Him to leave that one alone, but He smiled and said, “This apparently beautiful flower is in fact a poisonous weed. Left here it will ruin your garden.” I consented to its removal. It was painful to see it go – the roots were deep, and it required a lot of digging to get rid of all of it.
This may be the way some of these things change. The problem with Ellen White is that she suggests that every little defect of character is some huge eternal cancerous boulder. Some things simply go away once we become aware of its silliness or its harm to ourselves. Sometimes its as simple as letting go. She would suggest that we need to be in this state of deep dark agony for change to occur at any level. This is not the healthy Christian life. There are certainly those times, but for the most part the Christian life is light.
Quote:
I am so glad that I decided to leave the Master Gardener in charge of my garden. I am now rejoicing in seeing some beautiful fruit – a lady who was an alcoholic almost at death’s door now free from alcohol, and thanking God for her release – another lady chained with the addiction of over-the-counter drugs, “doctor shopping”, etc., proud of her atheism, now acknowledging that there must be a God, and planning to come to church with me – a lonely lady now rejoicing in the fellowship of church – an abused lady, now finding her way to Christ and His love. The fruit is beautiful.
This is beautiful. I would suggest that this is because who you are, not because of reading Ellen White. You have chosen to focus on those things of Ellen White that support what you have found to be true through experience. I know you are selective in what you read of Ellen White. When I hear Christians say the God did it all, I'm thinking that they must have had some part in it. If it was simple and easy everyone would be loving people.
Life is difficult and I would suggest that God brings everyone to an awareness through the process of life. It is not a good bad right wrong world that God lives in, it is a world that looks to meet needs and heal. This focus on whether my fruit is up to par or not is a waste of energy. The focus should be on finding the awareness, on finding the light, on accepting and receiving God's love.
Richard
_________________________
Richard My Blog
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#9777 - 03/02/04 06:03 PM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: Goddesse]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
I would also suggest that part of you doesn't really believe that God forgives. I am not making a moral judgement, just an observation. I would ask you, what would it take for you to believe that God forgives you?
That's a very good question. To be perfectly honest, I haven't a clue how to answer it. Everything I could think of would just add to one big gimme gimme wish list. God is not obligated to play some indulgent Santa Claus to my whims though, so what does it matter?
What would it take? Perhaps if I could sense His presence more clearly, or if I could see His truth more clearly, or if I could be delivered from everything shallow and false inside me that I despise. Maybe if He talked to me more in dreams and visions, or if I could hear His voice more clearly and distinctly like I did when I was younger. Perhaps if I saw the real miracle of His ability to transform me and make me new, instead of feeling like the same tired, cynical old whore I've been for the past two decades trying to clean myself up so He will notice me. Maybe if He would not only communicate clearly to me His will for my life but also open the doors for me to go through instead of leaving everything in confusion. Who knows? Maybe if He did all of this there would still be some vile part of me that would say it's not enough and I still don't feel forgiven. MAYBE ALL IT WOULD REALLY REQUIRE ON HIS PART WOULD BE TO GET RID OF THAT FROM ME SO I CAN MOVE ON. If I could just have "normal" feelings like regular people do instead of being so profoundly destroyed each time a hurt or disappointment occurs like it's the first time I ever got cut in my life and I wasn't expecting it or didn't see it coming but still knew somehow it was inevitable and inescapable and damning and doom.
Maybe if He would just deliver me from the creature I am and make me the creation I want to be and was meant to be. Remove the suffocating noose around my neck that is everything that holds me in bondage, and I do not mean just my own sins/flaws/whatever but circumstances and all those things of "pharaoh" over which I have no control and no choice, any more than the Hebrews had a choice about living in Egypt and having to make bricks from mud and straw every day. Talk about drudgery!!
I have no idea though. I'm not Him, so I can't see the end from the beginning.
Quote:
Quote:
No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness.
If you believe this to be true then you are feeling your sinfulness. You have described it very acurately. I would ask you then, "How long do you have to wait for the deep seated love for Jesus?" And, "How many times do you have to go through deep seated self loathing of your own sinfulness to qualify for permanant status?"
That's another fabulous question. I wonder about that myself sometimes. How many times does it take until I can be permanently in deep-seated, 100% committed love with Him? And is this really getting me there? But those questions are foolish, because they presume I have a choice in the matter. I don't. This is the way I am, and there's nothing I can do about it. (And trust me, I've tried everything but pharmaceuticals, and I refuse to go that route. Sure, I've gained tremendous insights into my "condition" and worked through my "process" and unpacked my "baggage" and eliminated my "shame" and the whole nine yards. But all those little triumphs are short lived and soon I return to being the same bitter, nasty, stubborn misfit cuss I've always been.)
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The delusion is the idea that you are disposable. You have mistaken that for reality. I am wondering who told you and convinced you that you were disposable and insignificant?
Who (in any position or with any ability to make things "stick") didn't?
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My guess is you are directing your rage toward yourself.
And why not? Six point five billion people can't be wrong.
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Maybe you need to direct your rage against the idea that you are disposable.
And maybe someone ought to go over to a piece of forsaken ground in Iraq and rebuild Babylon, brick by brick. See what happens if you dare! Watch the interminable steel-toed boot of unbreakable prophecy slam you in the face again and again!!! Thrill to the joy of being kicked to the bottom of the well once more for daring to raise your hopes sufficiently to scrabble up its slimy walls and having the audacity to lift your head just an inch into the sunlight as if you could emerge from where you were thrown!!
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Jesus certainly seemed to have a lot of rage toward this idea. Why do you think he raged within the temple when the priests were teaching through their system of sacrifice that God favored the wealthy? I think he knew the pain that this idea caused the poor. And He demonstrated his disfavor very graphically over turning tables and driving those who would teach this away. And yet after He finished, the children got it, because they felt so comfortable that they came and sat with Him. This is a powerful story.
And one of my favorites. But no one else seems to believe in THAT Jesus -- the friend of sinners, the revolutionary prophet of a radical new kingdom, the bold, defiant, civil-disobedience Christ who challenges the corrupt system. They all seem to want a Jesus who smugly and self-righteously pats them on the back for thwarting the efforts of gays to obtain equal rights under the law, who smiles a saccharin, papal blessing over liars who rig their way through rich and powerful friends in secret places into positions of power so they can oppress the working class, fatten the wallets of their rich friends, put muscle back into the big business bully to trample all the "little guys" (like it needed any more), and rape what precious little resources remain on this planet while starving children slave for pennies in sweatshops to sell the image. And then tell hardworking people to lay down and suck it up when these greedy profitmongers sell their jobs to the lowest bidder across the ocean as if the overpriced economy were our fault, our doing instead of theirs. That's the kind of Jesus they want, and it's one that makes me want to freaking puke. If that is God, if that is Christ, then HEAR ME YE HEAVENS AND GIVE EAR, O EARTH, I WILL PROCLAIM MY NAME LUCIFER AND MY ALLEGIANCE TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Because that is everything I despise, everything that is AGAINST LOVE, and AGAINST FREEDOM, and AGAINST EVERYTHING I NEED TO BELIEVE THE TRUE GOD STANDS FOR. I WILL NOT WORSHIP A TYRANT, AND I WILL NOT BOW MY NECK TO A FILTHY OPPRESSOR WHO USES "LOVE" AS BAIT LIKE THE MOLESTER USES CANDY AND SMILES TO LURE A CHILD.
I sincerely hope in my heart of hearts that is NOT God. But there is a war on and everyone seems to want me to believe that IS God, so I will despair and destroy myself, and I need to speak it outright for what it is, because it needs to be heard. It needs to be seen this is the war, for the definition of reality itself, and I need those who will fight with me in the cause of light, life, love, liberty, and truth!! And NOT try to send me some subtle message that I am EVIL because I do not support their saccharin frosting candy-coated world of BRAIN-DEAD WORSHIP, ADORATION, and EMULATION OF MINDLESS CONFORMITY!!!
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What would you have to hear to feel valued and significant? Answer this with your feelings. And when you know what you need to hear, imagine Jesus with His arms around you wispering this in your ear.
That the Truth of the Lord be every bit as vindicated and unimpeachable from my lips as it was coming from His. That I am His prophet, His chosen vessel, in a personal and specific way, not in some general fashion that lumps me in with the rest of the teeming faceless mass of humanity. That He will deliver me from the oppression of the system so I can truly work for Him without the need to squander the precious commodities of my time, presence, and mind upon the mere procurement of bread and somewhere to lay my head.
There is so much, so very very much I could say here, and how futile it all would be to convey what is in my heart. What is it that I need? Deliver me, O Lord, not only from all my sins for Thy mercy's sake, but from the tyranny upon my life that is everything banal and mundane. Show Yourself a God more powerful than Pharaoh, and command him in every aspect of life that he must let me go that I may serve You!!!
RICHARD -- THANK YOU for engaging me in this dialogue. Please know that my ranting here is NOT directed at you in the SLIGHTEST. I am indebted to you for just giving me the nudge to get some of this out of my system.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#9778 - 03/03/04 10:58 AM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: ]
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Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1431
Loc: CA
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I would also suggest that part of you doesn't really believe that God forgives. I am not making a moral judgement, just an observation. I would ask you, what would it take for you to believe that God forgives you?
That's a very good question. To be perfectly honest, I haven't a clue how to answer it.
If you don't know what it would take then you will never feel forgiven. That's not a judgement but simply a result of not knowing. Looking at your list reveals some beliefs that you do have either on a conscious or subconscious level that may prevent you from ever feeling forgiven. I'll try and point them out and you can take it or leave it depending on what rings true for you.
Most of your requirements depend on you changing in some way. For example...
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Perhaps if I saw the real miracle of His ability to transform me and make me new, instead of feeling like the same tired, cynical old whore I've been for the past two decades trying to clean myself up so He will notice me.
This is pretty judgemental self talk. When Jesus asks us to not judge I think He is including judgements of ourselves. If you have to wait until you clean up your act to be forgiven you are going to have to wait a long time.
The point of cleaning up your act is to have a better life for YOU, not to gain God's attention or to be forgiven. The word for God in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, is Sacred Unity. Whether we accept God or not, simply by being created we are in a Sacred Unity with God. When we suffer, all suffer, and that includes God. Suffering is not a good, bad, right, wrong thing. It is a wonderful blessing that lets us know when we are moving in a direction of death. It is not a punishment. It is a warning sign that part of us is dying. The most painful form of death is death of the soul.
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If I could just have "normal" feelings like regular people do instead of being so profoundly destroyed each time a hurt or disappointment occurs like it's the first time I ever got cut in my life and I wasn't expecting it or didn't see it coming but still knew somehow it was inevitable and inescapable and damning and doom.
My guess is this is happening because you are investing in particular outcomes. Part of faith is letting go of outcomes. When we create outcomes we are playing God. All of us do it. It is an illusion of safety.
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Maybe if He would just deliver me from the creature I am and make me the creation I want to be and was meant to be.
What if you are already the creature you were meant to be at this moment?
What if you had to explain the internal combustion engine to a two year old? How could you do it? You couldn't. You would have to tell the two year old, "Look, I know how the engine works and you are just going to have to trust me that it will power our car." What if the two year old replied, "But I can't feel safe unless I know how the engine works." Is the two year old ever going to feel safe under those conditions? The two year old can either let go of the need to know and trust you or the two year old can continue to fuss and feel fearful. Either way the engine going to work the same and the outcome is going to be the same. The only difference is how the two year old chooses to go through the process of riding in the car.
Now the difference between how the universe works and our understanding is several magnitudes greater than a two year old's ability to understand combustion engines. We have the same choice. We can let go of outcomes and the need to know or we can go through life fearfully and painfully.
This is one reason why Jesus emphasizes the way to live life is life without judgement of ourselves or others. I really believe that you are exactly where you need to be at this moment in time. Your life is arranged in such a way that you can learn to walk through the dark places and survive. Embrace who you are, Jesus does. Love your darkness and your light.
Love is the power for transformation, so open your heart to love and close it to condemnation.
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But those questions are foolish, because they presume I have a choice in the matter. I don't. This is the way I am, and there's nothing I can do about it. (And trust me, I've tried everything but pharmaceuticals, and I refuse to go that route. Sure, I've gained tremendous insights into my "condition" and worked through my "process" and unpacked my "baggage" and eliminated my "shame" and the whole nine yards. But all those little triumphs are short lived and soon I return to being the same bitter, nasty, stubborn misfit cuss I've always been.)
You may not have power over addictive cycles, but you can choose how you want to interpret them. My guess is there is something about the return to what you call your same old self that works and is keeping you alive. There will come a point where that doesn't work anymore and staying your same old self will be more painful and fearful than letting go.
There is a death involved and that is why it is fearful. If something has been keeping you alive then trying something new can feel like it will kill you. You are trying to answer this with logic, rules, judgement, etc.
The answer is through feelings and your heart. Forget trying to figure it out and justify it or whatever your mind needs to do. Answer with your heart, no matter if it makes sense or not.
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The delusion is the idea that you are disposable. You have mistaken that for reality. I am wondering who told you and convinced you that you were disposable and insignificant?
Who (in any position or with any ability to make things "stick") didn't?
And how much longer are you going to choose to believe them? (This is where you use your anger. This is where Jesus used His.)
At some level it sounds like you still believe them. Who you going to trust? Them? What do they know about what its like to be you? This belief is stopping you from recieving God's love and you need love to change.
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And maybe someone ought to go over to a piece of forsaken ground in Iraq and rebuild Babylon, brick by brick. See what happens if you dare! Watch the interminable steel-toed boot of unbreakable prophecy slam you in the face again and again!!! Thrill to the joy of being kicked to the bottom of the well once more for daring to raise your hopes sufficiently to scrabble up its slimy walls and having the audacity to lift your head just an inch into the sunlight as if you could emerge from where you were thrown!!
And how long are you going to believe this? This is one reason that I no longer place value in the SDA Church's ability to interpret prophecy. I got very tired of living under the paranoia of each moment the world could change and everybody would be after me to kill me. It was always just around the corner. Better not get married, Jesus could come. Better perfect my character or I could go through unimaginable suffering that even the elect could not survive. Oh boy, great life to look forward to. This is about fear, not love. Perfect love casts out fear and we spread fear and call it the gospel. Fortunately its not.
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What would you have to hear to feel valued and significant? Answer this with your feelings. And when you know what you need to hear, imagine Jesus with His arms around you wispering this in your ear.
That the Truth of the Lord be every bit as vindicated and unimpeachable from my lips as it was coming from His. That I am His prophet, His chosen vessel, in a personal and specific way, not in some general fashion that lumps me in with the rest of the teeming faceless mass of humanity. That He will deliver me from the oppression of the system so I can truly work for Him without the need to squander the precious commodities of my time, presence, and mind upon the mere procurement of bread and somewhere to lay my head.
Again, this is about what you need to do. All you need to do is be. This is so heavy. My guess is that this is not what you heart wants. Its what your upbringing has told you that you should want this. Just let go of this and open yourself up to what happens. When you have these outcomes in mind you miss out on the real thing that is already there.
Ask yourself, not what you should want, but what you really want to feel. My list is pretty simple. I want to be liked, loved, and appreciated. I want my life to have meaning and I want to feel joy. I have learned to jump right in when those things come my way. If I'm thinking about what I should do, I miss out because I'm judging myself all the time.
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There is so much, so very very much I could say here, and how futile it all would be to convey what is in my heart.
Its never futile to listen to your heart because your heart tells the truth and the truth will set you free. It can be an uncomfortable truth and a fearful truth, but it is a healing pain. We came to where we are through the door of pain and sometimes we have to walk back out the same way. And the more you let go of judgement the less painful it is.
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RICHARD -- THANK YOU for engaging me in this dialogue. Please know that my ranting here is NOT directed at you in the SLIGHTEST. I am indebted to you for just giving me the nudge to get some of this out of my system.
I am not hearing this directed at me at all. I am listening to you on a different level than words. I am hearing you speak of your pain and struggle and you just get as much of this painful stuff out of your system as you desire. It sounds pretty big and very painful. And it sounds like it has been with you a long time. May the sweet peace of God's love come to you and wash down through your soul and quiet your mind and ease your pain. Open your whole body to this experience and allow God to embrace you as you have never been embraced before.
Richard
_________________________
Richard My Blog
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#9779 - 05/17/05 06:02 PM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: Goddesse]
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The King's Daughter
Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 2747
Loc: Alaska
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In Adventism it is generally assumed that we are believing in a God defined by Ellen White. If you don't believe this, just try defining God outside of her perceptions of God and see how long you hold a job in the denomination. 
The SDA denomination has fallen into a subtle and dangerous trap with regard to EGW. Her perception of Abba Father and Jesus is taken as the only perception, or the immutable truth of how and who They are. Corporate SDA'ism seems to have boxed Them in....
They define Themselves immutable in principle, unique in manifestation according to the needs of the individual.
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Pain and suffering shatters most definitions of God anyone offers up. Pain is the great equalizer. The problem in those moments, any explanation of why God allows pain holds no comfort and sounds rather trivial.
I would be interested in hearing how pain and suffering shatters most definitions of Abba Father.
I know of only one explanation of why pain and suffering are allowed to continue that makes any sense whatsoever. It goes back to the very genesis of the conflict between Abba Father and the Adversary. The Adversary accuses Abba Father of being a tyrant... one who forces worship... Abba, being Abba, says, No. I am Love. I require these things of you because I am Love and this is how the universe operates. I created each being with a holy nature, but also with the ability to choose...even to choose contrary to the nature I created them with. I will not force even one to worship Me.
As this works out in a fallen world, Abba is bound by His Own Nature. He will not force a response on something so important as salvation, neither will He force a fallen being on any lesser issue. Therefore, people who choose evil consistently are allowed to continue for a season, along with all the consequences of their actions. Disease and corruption is allowed to continue for a season, as is death, sin, and sorrow.
It continues not because Abba Father "can't" do anything about it, nor because He is distant and disinterested, but because He will not cheat in this ultimate conflict. It must be allowed full reign... to play out in it's entirety, so that there is never again any doubt that Abba Father is Love, and His Kingdom is Love.
Once the war is finally over, He will never have to deal with sin again... but in order to keep that promise... it must play out in it's entirety once and for all.
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In those moments I need to know. I'm not talking about a mental knowing. I need to know on a much deeper level than that.
When it's back-against-the-wall-what-do-you-believe-in time, I have found the only way to know that I know that I know, is to have experienced my faith. To have experienced my belief of stepping out, into miracle territory even through my fear. And watching my Abba Father do His thing.
Such experiential faith is the only avenue to peace... and it is a process, expanded upon over time, tested in the crucible of experience, bringing trusting assurance that Abba Father will do as He says, for the sake of His Son.
That is my experience...
_________________________
A heart where He alone has first place.
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#110470 - 01/25/07 04:46 AM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: Clio]
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Swiss n Swedish American
Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 6769
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
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In Adventism it is generally assumed that we are believing in a God defined by Ellen White. If you don't believe this, just try defining God outside of her perceptions of God and see how long you hold a job in the denomination.
The SDA denomination has fallen into a subtle and dangerous trap with regard to EGW. Her perception of Abba Father and Jesus is taken as the only perception, or the immutable truth of how and who They are. Corporate SDA'ism seems to have boxed Them in....
They define Themselves immutable in principle, unique in manifestation according to the needs of the individual.
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Pain and suffering shatters most definitions of God anyone offers up. Pain is the great equalizer. The problem in those moments, any explanation of why God allows pain holds no comfort and sounds rather trivial.
I would be interested in hearing how pain and suffering shatters most definitions of Abba Father.
I know of only one explanation of why pain and suffering are allowed to continue that makes any sense whatsoever. It goes back to the very genesis of the conflict between Abba Father and the Adversary. The Adversary accuses Abba Father of being a tyrant... one who forces worship... Abba, being Abba, says, No. I am Love. I require these things of you because I am Love and this is how the universe operates. I created each being with a holy nature, but also with the ability to choose...even to choose contrary to the nature I created them with. I will not force even one to worship Me.
As this works out in a fallen world, Abba is bound by His Own Nature. He will not force a response on something so important as salvation, neither will He force a fallen being on any lesser issue. Therefore, people who choose evil consistently are allowed to continue for a season, along with all the consequences of their actions. Disease and corruption is allowed to continue for a season, as is death, sin, and sorrow.
It continues not because Abba Father "can't" do anything about it, nor because He is distant and disinterested, but because He will not cheat in this ultimate conflict. It must be allowed full reign... to play out in it's entirety, so that there is never again any doubt that Abba Father is Love, and His Kingdom is Love.
Once the war is finally over, He will never have to deal with sin again... but in order to keep that promise... it must play out in it's entirety once and for all.
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In those moments I need to know. I'm not talking about a mental knowing. I need to know on a much deeper level than that.
When it's back-against-the-wall-what-do-you-believe-in time, I have found the only way to know that I know that I know, is to have experienced my faith. To have experienced my belief of stepping out, into miracle territory even through my fear. And watching my Abba Father do His thing.
Such experiential faith is the only avenue to peace... and it is a process, expanded upon over time, tested in the crucible of experience, bringing trusting assurance that Abba Father will do as He says, for the sake of His Son.
That is my experience...Thank you so much Clio for expressing this. I have Chronic pain and disability. I have struggled with this issue for years. Finally I came to understand exactly what you have outlined. I thought I was alone in this belief. So ... it is so good to have you articulate it. Thank you.
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Brought to you by Redwood ... a better tree for a new tomorrow.
Redwood
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#110585 - 01/26/07 03:00 PM
Re: The Test of Discipleship
[Re: Nicodema]
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Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 481
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Either way is fine for me, Beryl. For me the key thought in the chapter above (and in much of our discussion / debate / dialogue about faith, grace, works, obedience, etc.) is this one:  "purple"]It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? Who has the heart? With whom are our thoughts? Of whom do we love to converse? Who has our warmest affections and our best energies? If we are Christ's, our thoughts are with Him, and our sweetest thoughts are of Him. All we have and are is consecrated to Him. We long to bear His image, breathe His spirit, do His will, and please Him in all things.[/] So often it seems in our soul searching we are in danger either of deceiving ourselves or else erring too far on the side of caution and undermining the work God is doing in our lives (out of some misguided sense that if we can't find fault with ourselves at this moment over this issue, whatever it is, then surely we must be deluding ourselves, etc.) I find this selection (in purple above) addresses that completely. I can be a very harsh critic of myself and prone to think the worst. These statements lets me know that the real determining factor is not how close to perfect I'm becoming but rather where is my focus and what is in my heart. I agree. There are a couple of interesting verses about this subject of "where is my heart": Psalms 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. I have noticed that i don't always find everything when I do the searching; but when God does it; He finds it all. Good thing for the promise: Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
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