#10021 - 03/19/04 07:13 PM
Re: Mother of FRESNO's Murderer Interviewed
[Re: Halfstep Denise]
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Princess of Pasadena
Registered: 12/29/01
Posts: 2585
Loc: California
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Stan, You are amazing!!
Before I could even open my L.A.Times this morning, you had already posted the entire article! And at 3:00 a.m., too!
Anyway, I just came back to this thread to acknowledge that the mainstream press has now begun to include the SDA Church connection in its news reports of this tragedy.
I find it heartening that the L.A.Times at least waited until after the SDA Central California Conference had made its announcement [that some of Wesson's children were indeed SDA members, and that Wesson himself had actually attended SDA churches at some point] before beginning to include the SDA connection in its news reports.
I rely on this newspaper quite a bit to be fair and honest in its reporting, and this confirms that position for me.
--And of course, Stan, we all rely on you!
_________________________
Jeannie
...Change is inevitable; growth is optional....
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#10022 - 03/19/04 07:36 PM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: ]
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Princess of Pasadena
Registered: 12/29/01
Posts: 2585
Loc: California
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Quote:
I cannot help but think of how terribly great is the pressure in these "loving families" from "good Christian homes" to maintain a "status quo" of cheerfulness, warmth, and gentility while stuffing real problems, pains, lonelinesses, heartaches, doubts and difficulties beneath the surface in shame and fear.
... I don't think it took a big trauma to push him over the edge. More likely it was the cumulative effect of a lifetime of having to hide beneath the required facade in the name of being a good Christian, a good son, a good family man, living up to the expectations of a mercilessly impeccable standard set as high as the heavens are above the earth,...
I get terrified (and as a result -- defensive, paranoid, depressed, despairing and discouraged) when I feel myself being sucked in and pulled under by that tide.
...
Please...I'm begging my brothers and sisters in the church and in the faith: please, let's do something about this before it destroys more of us. (Even if it's not what happened to Marcus Wesson ... it is still happening to far too many of us on a regular basis.)
Good point, Nico. We should all be more accepting of one another.
But please don't beat yourself up. Nobody knows what went on in Wesson's mind. We all deal with our own sets of stresses [demons may be too strong a word in most cases].... We all fight the good fight of faith, daily.
Holding another person to one's own standard is WRONG. We should each face God directly, with Scriptures in hand, and study for ourselves how we should act. (There are some even here on this board who attempt to set up standards for others. IMHO we must not take that literally, only as suggestions for further study.)
But from my vicarious contacts with the mentally ill (through my late husband's teaching and 45 years of psychiatric medical practice) I perceive that Wesson was not well mentally. He probably could have been helped with medication. But those who need it most sometimes refuse to seek it.
None of us should fear psychiatric or psychologic therapy, any more than we would fear consulting an orthopedist for a fractured arm. Oh that Mr. Wesson had had someone to steer him in that direction! [I keep wondering how this "home schooling" got past the State Dept. of Education authorities. My daughter-in-law homeschooled her children in kindergarten, and she had a prescribed curriculum and required documentation which had to be filed with the State. I just can't figure out how these kids slipped through the cracks. But that's another thread....]
_________________________
Jeannie
...Change is inevitable; growth is optional....
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#10023 - 03/20/04 01:43 AM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: alisha]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
But from my vicarious contacts with the mentally ill (through my late husband's teaching and 45 years of psychiatric medical practice) I perceive that Wesson was not well mentally. He probably could have been helped with medication. But those who need it most sometimes refuse to seek it.
I definitely got that impression - that he was not well mentally.
It brings up an interesting spiritual dilemma -- not just the usual one about faith and "soft sciences" like psychology, but the question of how much "keeping oneself unspotted by the world" is too much. Everyone has a different idea of where the line between faith and extremes/fanaticism is drawn. I've seen some people draw it wherever they start to be personally inconvenienced or did not want to be persuaded to accept responsibility for their consumer choices, etc. and some even go so far as to insinuate that those who think we should be concerned about those kinds of things are being fanatical, extremist, or over the fringe so to speak. Everyday mainstream society certainly does seem to have an oppressive load of requirements and intrusions in order to live within its boundaries comfortably, and the temptation to retreat to a trailer in the desert is always there for folks who are sensitive, creative and intelligent, gifted in some way, as Marcus Wesson seems to have been; as David Koresh doubtless was too, and even Charles Manson. We don't typically think of activities such as homeschooling children or renovating older structures to serve as domiciles to be outre or bizarre ... so how are we to know where that line is drawn? Clearly before communal incest gets involved, obviously, but ... where?
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#10024 - 03/21/04 03:47 AM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 4152
Loc: Western United States
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Quote:
Outsiders and non-believers look at us and can see this as plain as the nose on their own faces. In a vast quantity of cases this forms a central reason why they are not among our number.
Please...I'm begging my brothers and sisters in the church and in the faith: please, let's do something about this before it destroys more of us. (Even if it's not what happened to Marcus Wesson ... it is still happening to far too many of us on a regular basis.) Let's be people who value authenticity above appearance, image and reputation -- who value the experience of hearing another's troubles and bearing another's burden above our selfish need to have nothing but shinyhappyupbeat input from others all the time, 24/7, so that WE will "not be dragged down" (whatever THAT means).
Certainly not wishing to give the impression there might not be numerous answers to help meet inquiring minds, nor that I have even a small modicum of those answers, it does appear that the labyrinthian courses to follow, formulated by the best intelligentsia man has to offer, is insufficient
to answer two of the critical mysteries of fallen man's experience.
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work...." 2 Thess 2:7
"...great is the mystery of godliness..." 1 Tim 3:16
However since the mystery of lawlessness has only brought pain when pursued, it seemed the better part of wisdom to pursue the mystery of godliness.
"For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline(sound mind)."
2 Tim 1:7
Man often draws two erroneous conclusions that cause great damage to the body of Christ. One is that just because I have failed my Master in certain points of conduct, all others have also, or at least things just as salacious.
The other erroneous conclusion is that just because I have failed to meet the goals set out for me by Jesus, all other of His professed followers are failing miserably also; they're just lying about their good conduct as any hypocrite would.
By drawing these conclusions we not only become 'accusers of the brethren' based on finding guilt by association, but we also make out God to be a liar, Who has promised victory over sin to those who submit to His rule.
"Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you...
Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exhalt you." James 4:7,8
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
What does this have to do with Wesson. It reveals that one can be very religious as a member of any Christian body, and still sink to the lowest levels of depravity if Jesus is not a personal Friend as we personally seek and invite Him into our lives to gain the victory over mindless evil we have no control over. And that on a moment by moment experience.
And if we stumble???
"And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." Jer 29:13
"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for He who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."
Heb 11:6
"And this IS eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3
Lift Jesus up!! 
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#10025 - 03/22/04 12:01 AM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
Man often draws two erroneous conclusions that cause great damage to the body of Christ. One is that just because I have failed my Master in certain points of conduct, all others have also, or at least things just as salacious.
The other erroneous conclusion is that just because I have failed to meet the goals set out for me by Jesus, all other of His professed followers are failing miserably also; they're just lying about their good conduct as any hypocrite would.
Generalizing about everyone from the particularity of oneself can indeed lead to error just as surely as it can sometimes lead to truth. However, I want to make something clear that seems to have been misread from my post (going by what was quoted of it as a preamble to these comments I have quoted above). First, while I have failed Christ in many things, and will readily admit to as much, the things I mentioned were not those particular areas, nor was I attempting to accuse anyone of anything, but rather were observations on a pattern, a theme, that recurs again and again.
Perhaps this partakes of these two mysteries you mentioned. I myself have no solid explanation for why a formula works in one family and fails to work in another -- why the same values, beliefs, and parenting styles can create a successful young man in one family while making a miserable, disturbed young man from another. Certainly it is tempting to take the easy way out and blame the parents -- to imagine that in the unfortunate family the answer is simple: surely the parents must have done something wrong. But I don't buy that.
What I do buy is that patterns that repeat don't lie. They have a story to tell, and that story is indeed that not every mind responds to a one-size-fits-all system of discipline, instruction, guidance, etc. The shame lies not with the individual mind here or there which cannot fit the one-size mold, but rather with all of us whose responsibility it is to recognize this, teach it, emphasize it, and work diligently to help people develop a variety of flexible models and skills that might be tailored to reach those whose minds, characters, and individual needs don't fit neatly into square holes like hewn pegs.
Second, I said nothing to indicate that I judged other Christians to be lying about their good conduct or playing the hypocrite. I accept that my brothers and sisters are imperfect beings -- like myself -- who don't have all the answers in the universe -- like myself -- and I don't have to look very far to find dozens who are better men or women than myself, either. But it is very easy to fall into the trap of keeping up appearances and living up to an image when that is the price one pays for acceptance. And there are people born into this enculturation who like all human beings are hungry for acceptance and a place among their family, community, peer group, etc. This may be the ties of real love or it may be the ties of the pecking-order, but whatever it is, it exerts a strong pull to keep one's problems and burdens out of the sight of others, even (and sometimes especially) those others that might actually be willing to help, because one does not want to burden the very people nice enough to actually care. And also because if one wishes to be generously disposed toward others, and through testing can determine that the flesh is weak where the spirit is willing when it comes to authenticity from another, one might elect to withdraw taking them up on such offers because one does not want to be the solitary destroyer to rob them of hope.
The burdens of the sighted are greater than those of the blind, and from he who wields great power to destroy, greater restraint is required. Selah.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#10026 - 03/22/04 01:27 PM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 4152
Loc: Western United States
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Quote:
Outsiders and non-believers look at us and can see this as plain as the nose on their own faces. In a vast quantity of cases this forms a central reason why they are not among our number.
Please...I'm begging my brothers and sisters in the church and in the faith: please, let's do something about this before it destroys more of us.
One of the efforts evident in your post reveals a genuine desire to get the body of believers to act as mature adults, stop behaving in a manner that makes it more difficult for onlookers, both believer and non-believer, to live contented and satisfying lives. There is some evidence in the scripture that seems to actually encourage us to become involved in the lives of other brothers and sisters of the faith, hopefully to motivate to a higher and more noble ideal.
"I solemnly charge you...preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;
and will turn away their ears from hearing the truth, and will turn aside to myths." 2 Tim 4:1-4
It seems up to each one of us to determine whether God has anointed us to fulfill those specific instructions. Judging from what has happened in the past to the servants of the Lord when accepting that position, we certainly are not kept in the dark about what to expect from those we might be asked to confront.
The most success I've had has been accepting 'seed sowing', as the more profitable, even in helping the disgruntled find hope in something better than actions motivated purely by selfish interests. And since my word is of no more importance than another's, it always seemed more appropriate to allow the Word to speak for itself, giving each the same freedom Jesus gives to me. To accept or to reject, as they feel so moved. I have, for the most part, found just taking care of my own life in moral correctness, as much load as I'm able to bear. And with a great deal more success than trying to manipulate others.
"The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road; and it was trampled under foot, and the birds of the air ate it up.
And other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.
And other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it, and choked it out.
And other seed fell into the good soil, and it grew up,
and produced a crop a hundred times as great.
As He said these things, He would call out,
'He who has ears to hear, let him hear.'"
Luke 8:5-8
Notice how the last sentence gives freedom for people to hear, or not. The verses in the same chapter from 10-15 gives further info for the benefit of those who find Jesus'
words less than easy to understand. Never is there found in the Word of God, lordship of one human being over another, except where those who choose not the Way are a threat to God's plans for His chosen.
As for the difficulty of the task of those who submit to Christ's rule____
"Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy, and My load is light."
Matt 11;29,30
It is the persons who separate themselves from God who find life difficult.
"Good understanding giveth favor, but the way of the transgressor is hard." Prov 13:15 ASV
Lift Jesus up!!
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#10027 - 03/22/04 07:16 PM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
It seems up to each one of us to determine whether God has anointed us to fulfill those specific instructions. Judging from what has happened in the past to the servants of the Lord when accepting that position, we certainly are not kept in the dark about what to expect from those we might be asked to confront.
The most success I've had has been accepting 'seed sowing', as the more profitable, even in helping the disgruntled find hope in something better than actions motivated purely by selfish interests. And since my word is of no more importance than another's, it always seemed more appropriate to allow the Word to speak for itself, giving each the same freedom Jesus gives to me. To accept or to reject, as they feel so moved. I have, for the most part, found just taking care of my own life in moral correctness, as much load as I'm able to bear. And with a great deal more success than trying to manipulate others.
I don't feel that I am anointed by God to go around pointing fingers and telling everyone what's wrong with everything they do, if that's what you mean. Matter of fact, I don't accept that anyone IS anointed by God to do that. There was a time when I was very young and sure of myself and far more sure of my standing with God than I will ever be again, when I felt such a burden for how far the church had fallen from her divinely appointed commission that I could not restrain myself from making a fuss. This I viewed as "upholding the standard" and "blowing the trumpet as a watchman for Zion", etc. but the feedback I received from others taught me that I was mistaken and deluded. That it was I, not they, who was in need of transformation/reformation/whateveration, because I was a judgmental fanatic representing God falsely and without love. Granted, that was not how I experienced things inside myself -- I rather felt like the description given by Sister White: "tears were in His voice as He uttered His scathing rebuke" -- "sighing and crying for the abominations in the midst thereof", etc. -- but who cares what I feel when someone else's perceptions are at stake?? After all, I wasn't in it for me. That was the bottom line. So I had to accept their reality instead of my own, and despair that the "persecution" with which I was met was not to the honor and glory of God at all, nor due to my zeal and faith, but rather due to no greater fact than that I was a horrible person who deserved to be hated and rejected.
Sorry, didn't mean to do an ancient history dump on you.
Back to here and now: I have always felt however, that each one of us has his or her particular experiences for a reason, and that the body as a whole is meant to benefit from the shared transmission of learning and information gleaned from these. I suppose in this I am wrong as well. It would not surprise me. I seem to be wrong about everything these days. Well I sure wish someone would tell me what is right -- what is real, how I'm supposed to see things -- because I clearly do not have a clue. Most days I don't "see" anything -- I don't have any "thoughts" on anything -- I am pure sensorimotor awareness, wailing at being slapped, clinging to being hugged, wondering who's going to trick me next. The only message I seem to hear from people when I have anything to say is "shut up, you don't know what you are talking about, get lost" ... so ... maybe I should.
just.
shut.
up.
permanently.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#10028 - 03/22/04 07:26 PM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
It is the persons who separate themselves from God who find life difficult.
"Good understanding giveth favor, but the way of the transgressor is hard." Prov 13:15 ASV
That's a pretty confusing, "crazymaking" pronouncement to throw at people when, while seeking God earnestly, they still find life difficult. What do you intend such to do with that kind of blanket pronouncement? What conclusions are they to draw?
(a) that there is some secret, hidden way in which they are secretly, without even knowing it themselves, separating them from God, and so they should start tearing themselves to pieces trying to find it?
(b) that you take them to be lying about seeking God since, because they find life difficult, they clearly must be somehow doing something wrong?
(c) ??
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#10029 - 03/23/04 12:24 AM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 1641
Loc: Alajuela, Costa Rica
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Remember what the topic is please...
... so stay on track
time to make a turn...
_________________________
//_david
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#10030 - 03/23/04 01:16 AM
Re: More than meets the eye?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 288
Loc: Maine, USA
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